I know some of you have a lot of different States that you are licensed in. So I am curious how it works.
The context is that the title report we are reviewing has an "ATLA survey" on which the measured distances are off by feet from what we found, the monument descriptions are all off, and it clearly doesn't meet our state standards.?ÿ
So, I look to contact the guy, not to yell at him about standards, but to make sure we were on the same planet. The survey is in my state (WA). The company that coordinated the survey is our of another state, the survey company that produced the survey is based in a third state, and the PLS (licensed in my state) lives and appears to work out of a forth state that is a thousand miles from my state of WA.?ÿ
- How does that work economically? Everyone needs their cut and by the time you get to the field work, there cannot be much left in the budget.
- I cannot imagine that they got paid much for the survey, so it seems unlikely that he flies out here to do the work himself.
- Who does the field work?
- How do they work under his direction?
1. I am sincerely asking if this works for people. Can this be done ethically and realistically?
2. My concern is NOT that they guy is taking business. My concern is that the product is substandard in every way and reflects poorly on my chosen profession.
3. I know that there will be flamage on this, but I am VERY curious if there are people out there making this type of arrangement work.
Call went to a voicemail that isn't set up (standard robo "Leave message").
Sent email to the PLS
Wrong category. Should be humor.
(Just kidding!)
🙂
The way I understood this type of work was:
Send out a crew from the closest corporate office, the licensed LS would discuss the scope of work with the office managers.?ÿ The crew would do the work and email the raw data to the LS for processing.?ÿ The coordinating firm (Bock & Clark or the like) wouldn't be involved until the submittal was provided and they did their "QA" of the work for the client.
The company would get a couple of design ALTA?ÿ together, then have that crew hit the road in a week long adventure.
The LS could live in AR, but the work would be in CA and the closest corporate office, and the crew is in NV.?ÿ?ÿ
I don't think this follows the spirit of most state laws, but how to you prove they are not in responsible charge.?ÿ In my example above, the LS doesn't even have to even be at the branch office on a regular basis, because the work IS done in a third state.
?ÿ
CA B&P 8729 (b)
An out-of-state business with a branch office in this state shall meet the requirements
of subdivision (a) and shall have an owner, partner, or officer who is in charge of the land
surveying work in this state, who is licensed in this state, and who is physically present at the
branch office in this state on a regular basis
In my example above, the LS doesn't even have to even be at the branch office on a regular basis, because the work IS done in a third state.
It looks like the drafters of the law assumed there would be a branch office in the state.?ÿ That's a loophole they missed.
But that's California.?ÿ What does Washington say?
I've seen 2 different ways that ALTA surveys wind up being done by a surveyor from way out of state:
1. A major corporation is refinancing hundreds of corporately owned sites in dozens of states. They aren't going to spend days on the phone hiring hundreds of surveyors all over the country, so they hire the "ALTA Coordinator" company to facilitate it. The coordinator hires surveyors based mostly on their willingness to comply with the coordinator's demands regarding style, schedule, and "not rocking the boat", and then of course on cheapest price. As you can imagine that's not going to be the local guy in every case, as most of us are unwilling to bow to the coordinator's bully tactics, so they wind up with varying degrees of questionable quality surveys. This is not a problem to the coordinator, as the end client wouldn't know a quality survey if it hit them in the head. Most of these contracts are on razor thin profit margins, but there are people who make a living at it, and I'm sure there are some out there doing a good job at it too.
2. Someone hires an ALTA "specialist", because they have a reputation of doing quality work, and they don't want to get burned by hiring a local guy that they don't have any experience with, and don't want to spend the time checking them out. This type of survey comes at a premium for sure, but is generally done with great care, because it's the reputation that sells, not the price. There's a company that does this on my side of the state (WA) and I have an employee who interned with that company while he was in college. He says that quality was job one, and having seen the work, I believe him.
Unfortunately I think you're looking at variety 1 in your case, and I'd be surprised if you are able to get in touch with the guy, let alone get a reasonable answer about "who was in charge of this thing".
Good luck!
Its not a loophole. Brad is quoting the portion that refers to firms located out of California with a branch office in California.
In California, the licensed land surveyor signing/sealing the work would be held responsible for ensuring that the work met the standard of practice and compliance with both contractual ALTA requirements and state reporting laws, regardless of where that licensee is located.
In Washington the branch office has to have a resident PLS in order to offer Land Surveying from that office.
Ric is correct, I did quote the wrong section.
However, I do not see anything in the law stating an out of state firm must have an CA LS in that out of state office, if they do work in CA.
I have zero issue with #2 above, but #1 is an issue. I really am not a "turn the guy in" sort of person, but if you saw this survey you would be offended that someone put a WA PLS stamp on it. (The stamp is from this year, and it still has the expiration date on it, BTW.)
?ÿ
You could nit-pick almost any survey and find something. This isn't that.?ÿ
I found zero evidence of a branch office. Just a business license. I think that was the point. No branch office, no need for a PLS there.
I know some of you have a lot of different States that you are licensed in. So I am curious how it works.
The way it works for me is that I can be in five states with less than 90 minutes drive time (technically six, but I'm not licensed in WV) ???? ?ÿ
I believe you. I've seen a few of those that are complete garbage. Seems to me that this is what the ALTA standards, and the state standard, are there to prevent, but for that to work we have to actually have the professionalism to follow those standards, even when there is no likelihood of anyone being able to force us to.
This is the West Coast. You can't get through one state in 90 minutes.
🙂
Google has the location of the office in Indiana as 2,258 miles from the site and about a 34 hour straight through drive.
I really am not a "turn the guy in" sort of person,
If you follow the laws of WA: To notify or not notify the Board isn't up to you.
196-27A-020WAC 196-27A-020 Fundamental canons and guide-lines for professional conduct and practice. Registrants are to safeguard life, health, and property and promote the welfare of the public. To that end, registrants have obligations to the public, their employers and clients, other registrants and the board.
(4) Registrant's obligation to the board.
(c) Registrants shall notify the board of suspected violations of chapter 18.43 or 18.235 RCW or of these rules by providing factual information in writing to convey the knowledge or reason(s) to believe another person or firm may be in violation.
Note the use of the term "suspected violations". You aren't obligated to investigate and know for sure. You are obligated to notify the board. This is just one more element of your obligation as a professional to protect the public. It's not discretionary.
2. My concern is NOT that they guy is taking business. My concern is that the product is substandard in every way and reflects poorly on my chosen profession.
Well, the first thing that popped into my head is the client must be shooting for some extreme lowball deal when getting this many people involved from all over the place.?ÿ If that's the case then it looks like maybe they got what they paid for.?ÿ As far as a bad look... all I can say about that is a number of the field guys (and even an odd PLS) I see look like they could use a shave, diet, trip to a dentist, and maybe a bath.?ÿ Professionalism is exhibited in a variety of ways.
US Surveyor based is in IN - just saying. I have been less than impressed when working behind them.
If it looks like garbage, smells like garbage, and, well tastes like garbage - it might actually be garbage.?ÿ?ÿ
Yes, I am aware. I will also talk to the guy before doing so, if possible.
I am actually not sure that either of those statutes were violated. I dont even know if it rises to the level of suspicion. He may be following those particular rules, while doing very poor work. He appears to be licensed, so he isn't violating that aspect.
Simply finding what someone finds to be substandard survey doesnt mean that you are compelled to present the issue to the BOR.
Unless you are Kent, we all make choices that others COULD judge. But...this is beyond.
