John Putnam, post: 425751, member: 1188 wrote: Taken for ORS 672 which regulate Engineers & Land Suveyors
672.002 Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325. As used in ORS 672.002 to 672.325, unless the context requires otherwise:(1) ÛÏBoardÛ means the State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying.
(2) ÛÏEngineer,Û ÛÏprofessional engineerÛ or ÛÏregistered professional engineerÛ means an individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state as provided under ORS 672.002 to 672.325.
This guy had in coming. He stated in a letter to OSBEELS that he was an engineer. They warned him about calling himself an engineer and yet he continued to do so in a very public way.
If I told the medical board that I was a doctor and was not, would you still feel the same?
I understand why the board fined him, for calling himself a professional engineer. The next person to get the same tickets as him is going to show up and court and say hey a professional engineer, said the method is wrong and I am not guilty due to his argument. He is causing harm to the public by saying he is a professional engineer. Unless he can drive a train he should have said, I have an engineering degree, and this is why the formula is not correct.
John Putnam, post: 425751, member: 1188 wrote: Taken for ORS 672 which regulate Engineers & Land Suveyors
672.002 Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325. As used in ORS 672.002 to 672.325, unless the context requires otherwise:(1) ÛÏBoardÛ means the State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying.
(2) ÛÏEngineer,Û ÛÏprofessional engineerÛ or ÛÏregistered professional engineerÛ means an individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state as provided under ORS 672.002 to 672.325.
This guy had in coming. He stated in a letter to OSBEELS that he was an engineer. They warned him about calling himself an engineer and yet he continued to do so in a very public way.
If I told the medical board that I was a doctor and was not, would you still feel the same?
That's a good point--context is key. If a history professor with a Ph.D. represented himself as a doctor to the medical board, then he'd have it coming as well.
Tommy Young, post: 425720, member: 703 wrote: I wonder if the Oregon board flags down every train that passes through the state and cites everyone that calls themselves an engineer.
Oregon state laws says (and I think that the other 49 states have something similar):
[INDENT](1) A person is practicing or offering to practice engineering if the person:
(a) By verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way implies that the person is or purports to be a registered professional engineer;
(b) Through the use of some other title implies that the person is an engineer or a registered professional engineer; or
(c) Purports to be able to perform, or who does perform, any service or work that is defined by ORS 672.005 as the practice of engineering
[/INDENT]
Mr. Jarlstrom did all those things. The Board is obliged to enforce the state's laws. He was warned. I think the fact that the fine was a relatively small one - compared to what it could have been- shows how enthusiastic the board was about it. But they had to do it.
Now, I live in Beaverton. And I can tell you that the traffic lights here do have short yellows and, more to the point, very long reds. I agree with Nate that the traffic cameras have more to do with revenue than with traffic safety.
John Putnam, post: 425751, member: 1188 wrote: Taken for ORS 672 which regulate Engineers & Land Suveyors
672.002 Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325. As used in ORS 672.002 to 672.325, unless the context requires otherwise:(1) ÛÏBoardÛ means the State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying.
(2) ÛÏEngineer,Û ÛÏprofessional engineerÛ or ÛÏregistered professional engineerÛ means an individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state as provided under ORS 672.002 to 672.325.
This guy had in coming. He stated in a letter to OSBEELS that he was an engineer. They warned him about calling himself an engineer and yet he continued to do so in a very public way.
If I told the medical board that I was a doctor and was not, would you still feel the same?
He's not being punished just for calling himself an engineer. He's being punished because the board says what he actually did was practicing engineering.
Either way, I hope he wins his case.
I would fight it long and hard. If I come to Oregon to live I am still an engineer. I may not say I am a Professional Engineer licensed by the State of Oregon. I may say I am a Professional Engineer licensed in another State. I may say I am an engineering graduate. I may say I am an engineer.
I don't see that he ever said he was a Professional Engineer. He did say he knew how to figure out such things as what he did because he is an engineer. I do not see that he at any time performed engineering-based calculations because he expected to be compensated for doing so.
The Oregon Board is wrong. Plain and simple.
Governmental or political entities dealing with publicly embarrassing situations in this manner seems to be the way of the world. Let's say some law enforcement agency was investigating me for clandestine and possibly illegal dealings with folks that don't have our national security at heart. The first thing I need to do is cry and scream because that specific law enforcement agency was spying on me.
Seems to work nowadays.
John Putnam, post: 425751, member: 1188 wrote: what If the medical board told me I was a doctor and I was not, would you still feel the same?:imp:
Just because some board says you're OK; doesn't mean they're right...
Holy Cow, post: 425761, member: 50 wrote: I would fight it long and hard. If I come to Oregon to live I am still an engineer. I may not say I am a Professional Engineer licensed by the State of Oregon. I may say I am a Professional Engineer licensed in another State. I may say I am an engineering graduate. I may say I am an engineer.
I don't see that he ever said he was a Professional Engineer. He did say he knew how to figure out such things as what he did because he is an engineer. I do not see that he at any time performed engineering-based calculations because he expected to be compensated for doing so.
The Oregon Board is wrong. Plain and simple.
They have been wrong before, the following was taken from Law enforcement minutes published on-line:
Informal Conferences
2894 - Theodore Baker
Theodore Baker, PLS, met in an informal conference with the LEC in attempt to reach a settlement agreement. Baker explained that the monument he uncovered was in the public right of way. Chair Boyd explained that based on the information provided, it seemed to be more of
an easement between the two properties than a public right of way. Baker explained the series of events leading up to compliant. He believed he was not obligated to provide notice since he
Law Enforcement Committee February 11, 2016
Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying
never left the public roadway. Van Dyke asked if Baker practiced surveying the day he went out to the property. Baker stated he was there to assess what needed to be done before surveying and found, and uncovered a monument. Chair Boyd wondered if digging up a monument is considered surveying. Van Dyke inquired if Baker used a shovel. Baker answered yes. Kent asked Baker if he had any suggestions to reach a settlement agreement. Baker requested that no penalty be assessed. Singh provided his input as a professional surveyor and asked who dug up the monument. Baker confirmed that it was he who did the digging. Van Dyke then asked
Baker how he knew where to dig the hole. Baker answered that he had a metal detector.
The Committee exited its public meeting pursuant to Oregon Revised Statute (ORS)
192.690(1) for private deliberation on a contested case. All members of the audience were asked to leave the room for these deliberations and were invited to return upon resumption of the public meeting. Upon returning to public meeting, it was announced that no decisions were made and no votes were taken.
Upon returning to public meeting, it was moved and seconded (Singh/Kent) to withdraw the NOI and to issue a letter of concern. Singh also requested that an article be drafted clarifying that public easements are typically held in private ownership, requiring notice of right of entry before surveying. The motion passed unanimously. There was no further discussion.
I believe this was overridden by the full board latter but the fact that members of the committee could come to this conclusion amazes me, could you imagine starting your day by informing the public that you were going to be commuting over public r/w in order to do a survey? Where does it end? Jp
Robert Hill, post: 425752, member: 378 wrote: Doesn't appear that he was trying to
profit from his work.
If he's avoiding paying a fine, that's certainly in his best interest. If he paid the fine and they said: oopsy, we made a mistake, here's your money back; isn't that profitable for him?
I'm not an attorney and I do not claim to be one. Just in case someone reading this; thinks my stupid argument makes me one...
To be specific he recorded and kept times of yellow light duration. No where in the Oregon law does it state time keeping is the work of a professional engineer. If so they would be fining paid timekeepers at racetracks, football games, et cetera. It is a good thing Oregon does not license Professional Physicists or he could be fined for determining that the light was yellow and not red or green.
I recall a physics problem in college, Student A was cited for going through a red light. Student A said he was going so fast that the light appeared to be green and he provided calculations o the judge. Given the speed of light, red light and green light wave lengths, how fast was Student a traveling?
I cannot recall if I got it right, but I do remember they graded on a curve and I had tests were 50% was an A and 35% was passing. You worked hard to get partial credit for actually knowing what you were supposed to do to solve the problem, even if your answer was wrong. A right answer with no calculations could get you nowhere.
Paul in PA
Paul in PA, post: 425780, member: 236 wrote: No where in the Oregon law does it state time keeping is the work of a professional engineer....
Mark Mayer, post: 425755, member: 424 wrote: Oregon state laws says (and I think that the other 49 states have something similar):
(1) A person is practicing or offering to practice engineering if the person:
(a) By verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way implies that the person is or purports to be a registered professional engineer;
(b) Through the use of some other title implies that the person is an engineer or a registered professional engineer; or
(c) Purports to be able to perform, or who does perform, any service or work that is defined by ORS 672.005 as the practice of engineering
The protectors of the public can not admit fault.
When they do, they are done and over with.
Like the State, when they make an error, it affects the entire government they exist within, so, they always claim to be right and within the law and they interpret the law in their favor.
Science never stands a chance against bureaucrats and their version of the law.
Below are the three primary statutes that appear to apply to this case: 672.002; 672.007 and 672.005. The built in stupidity is the concept that if one is doing anything that is deemed to be "Performing any professional service or creative work requiring engineering education, training and experience." then they must be licensed by the State of Oregon. The missing link is the definition of professional service. It should be intended that "professional service" means offering oneself, individually, to the public to do any of these things. It SHOULD NOT be intended that "professional service" means any work product, even if for an employer in an employee/employer relationship. "Professional service" should embrace consulting where there is a known client to pay for the service and a service provider who must be licensed to do so. The Oregon Board's contention that this fellow was doing consulting engineering is ludicrous. The idea that one cannot identify themselves by the basic term "engineer" without being licensed by the State as a Professional Engineer is downright foolish. Right off the bat they have eliminated 90 percent of the faculty doing engineering instruction within accredited universities offering degrees in engineering.
Note that the statutes below apply very similar wording to surveying as they do to engineering.
2015 ORS 672.002å?
Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325
As used in ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties), unless the context requires otherwise:
(1)"Board" means the State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying.
(2)"Engineer," "professional engineer" or "registered professional engineer" means an individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state as provided under ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to672.325 (Civil penalties).
(3)"Engineering intern" means an individual enrolled by the board as having passed an examination in the fundamental engineering subjects.
(4)"Geodetic survey" means a determination of the size and shape of the earth or the position of any point on the earth.
(5)"Land surveyor," "professional land surveyor" or "registered professional land surveyor" means an individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice surveying in this state as provided by ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties).
(6)"Land surveying intern" means an individual enrolled by the board as having passed an examination in the fundamental land surveying subjects.
(7)"Photogrammetric mapping" means an evaluating and measuring of land that is limited to the determination of the topography, area, contours and location of planimetric features, by using photogrammetric methods or similar remote sensing technology, including but not limited to using existing ground control points incidental to the photogrammetric or remote sensing mapping process.
(8)"Photogrammetrist" means an individual registered with the board and holding a valid certificate to practice photogrammetric mapping.
(9)"Responsible charge" means to have supervision and control of:
(a)The engineering design of works with responsibility for design decisions;
(b)Land surveying work for the purpose of ensuring conformance to the relevant requirements of law and sound surveying practice; or
(c)Photogrammetric mapping project work, which may include, but need not be limited to, work regarding the extent of coverage, location of ground control, aerial photography or similarly remotely sensed data, the measurement of features detected by remote sensing equipment, quality control for compliance with standards and specifications and the presentation of findings.
(10)"Supervision and control" means establishing the nature of, directing and guiding the preparation of, and approving the work product and accepting responsibility that the work product is in conformance with standards of professional practice. [1971 c.751 å¤1; 1983 c.614 å¤1; 1995 c.33 å¤1; 1997 c.210 å¤1; 2005 c.22 å¤475; 2005 c.445 å¤6; 2009 c.259 å¤1; 2015 c.576 å¤9]
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2015 ORS 672.007å?
Acts constituting practice of engineering, land surveying or photogrammetric mapping
For purposes of ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties):
(1)A person is practicing or offering to practice engineering if the person:
(a)By verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way implies that the person is or purports to be a registered professional engineer;
(b)Through the use of some other title implies that the person is an engineer or a registered professional engineer; or
(c)Purports to be able to perform, or who does perform, any service or work that is defined by ORS 672.005 (Additional definitions) as the practice of engineering.
(2)A person is practicing or offering to practice land surveying if the person:
(a)By verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way implies that the person is or purports to be a land surveyor;
(b)Through the use of some other title implies that the person is a land surveyor; or
(c)Purports to be able to perform, or who does perform, any land surveying service or work or any other service that is defined by ORS 672.005 (Additional definitions) as the practice of land surveying.
(3)A person is practicing or offering to practice photogrammetric mapping if the person:
(a)By verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card or in any other way implies that the person is or purports to be a photogrammetrist;
(b)Through the use of some other title implies that the person is a photogrammetrist; or
(c)Purports to be able to perform, or who does perform, any photogrammetric service or work or any other service that is defined by ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) as photogrammetric mapping. [1971 c.751 å¤3; 1981 c.143 å¤3; 2003 c.14 å¤427; 2009 c.259 å¤2]
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2015 ORS 672.005å?
Additional definitions
As used in ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties), unless the context requires otherwise:
(1)"Practice of engineering" or "practice of professional engineering" means doing any of the following:
(a)Performing any professional service or creative work requiring engineering education, training and experience.
(b)Applying special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such professional services or creative work as consultation, investigation, testimony, evaluation, planning, design and services during construction, manufacture or fabrication for the purpose of ensuring compliance with specifications and design, in connection with any public or private utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, works or projects.
(c)Surveying to determine area or topography.
(d)Surveying to establish lines, grades or elevations, or to determine or estimate quantities of materials required, removed or in place.
(e)Surveying required for design and construction layout of engineering and architectural infrastructure.
(f)Performing photogrammetric mapping.
(2)"Practice of land surveying" means doing any of the following:
(a)Providing or offering to provide professional services that apply mathematics, geodesy and other sciences and involve:
(A)The making of geometric measurements and gathering of related information pertaining to:
(i)The physical or legal features of the earth;
(ii)Improvements on the earth; or
(iii) The space above or below the earth; or
(B)The development of measurements and information described in subparagraph (A) of this paragraph into graphics, data, maps, plans, reports, descriptions, projects or other survey products.
(b)Performing geodetic surveys.
(c)Establishing, reestablishing or replacing boundaries or geodetic control monuments or reference points.
(d)Locating, relocating, establishing, reestablishing or retracing any property lines or boundaries for any tract of land, road right-of-way or easement.
(e)Making any survey for the division or subdivision of a tract of land or for the consolidation of tracts of land.
(f)Locating and laying out alignments, positions or elevations for the construction of fixed works.
(g)Performing or offering to perform any investigation, interpretation or evaluation of, or any consultation or testimony about, any of the services described in paragraphs (a) to (f) of this subsection.
(h)Collecting, preparing, manipulating or modifying data related to activities described in paragraphs (a) to (f) of this subsection, other than acting as a scrivener.
(i)Performing photogrammetric mapping.
(j)Making surveys that involve horizontal or vertical mapping control or geodetic control. [1971 c.751 å¤2; 1973 c.531 å¤1; 1977 c.620 å¤1; 1981 c.143 å¤2; 1991 c.339 å¤5; 1997 c.210 å¤2; 2005 c.445 å¤7]
Read the case linked above by James Fleming.
He agreed not to claim he was an engineer.
He later send an email to NCEES claiming an improvement on existing signal timing design.
Then an email to the Board stating "... I'm an excellent engineer."
He emailed the County Sheriff claiming to have improved the light timing.
He emails the Board claiming to be exempt from licensing requirements.
He contacts 60 Minutes and a local television station and other correcspondes refering to himself a "Swedish" engineer.
And more - read the case.
He purported himself to the public to be an engineer, multiple times.
Our Board got this right.
If he has a degree in engineering from any accredited university then he is, in fact, an engineer. Saying you are an engineer is completely different from saying you are licensed by the State as a Professional Engineer and, thus, entitled to a certain set of opportunities. I can't see that he ever claimed to be a licensed professional.
The Oregon interpretation is wrong.
Here is the listing of the 45 members of the Civil and Construction Engineering Dept. at Oregon State University. Note that only five of these people are licensed as Professional Engineers by the State of Oregon. Apparently, the others, including the Dean of the College of Engineering, are unworthy of stating to anyone that they are engineers. That is incredibly wrong.
Holy Cow, post: 425797, member: 50 wrote: If he has a degree in engineering from any accredited university then he is, in fact, an engineer
Lord knows I've been acting as if I were an upperclass subject of the Queen ever since I received my degree in English. 🙂
I think it's time to retire for the evening to the drawing room for port and a cigar.
[USER=136]@James Fleming[/USER]
One daughter had a double major in English and Communications. Told her I thought they were the same thing.
Another daughter received a bachelors degree labeled: Crime and Delinquency. Who knew they actually gave out diplomas for that kind of behavior? I thought being on one of the major sports teams was mandatory before being able to receive such a diploma.
HC,
I don't disagree with your position, but Colorado is not too much different from Oregon. Below are the pertinent sections in the Definitions portion of the Colorado Professional Engineers Practice Act (See Sections 10(a) and (b) in particular). Oregon may have additional authority to promulgate rules and/or policies that further address what professional services are regarded by them to include. While not identical, they appear to be similar boilerplate language. I'm too lazy (yet) to see how closely they align with the NCEES Model Law for Engineers - August 2015.
COLORADO REVISED STATUTES
TITLE 12. PROFESSIONS AND OCCUPATIONS
ARTICLE 25. ENGINEERS, SURVEYORS, AND ARCHITECTS
PART 1. ENGINEERS
C.R.S. 12-25-102 (2016)
12-25-102. Definitions
As used in this part 1, unless the context otherwise requires:
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(3) "Engineer" means a person who, by reason of intensive preparation in the use of mathematics, chemistry, physics, and engineering sciences, including the principles and methods of engineering analysis and design, is qualified to perform engineering work as defined in this part 1.
(4) "Engineering" means analysis or design work requiring intensive preparation and experience in the use of mathematics, chemistry, and physics and the engineering sciences.
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(10) (a) "Practice of engineering" means the performance for others of any professional service or creative work requiring engineering education, training, and experience and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical and engineering sciences to such professional services or creative work, including consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, design, and the observation of construction to evaluate compliance with plans and specifications in connection with the utilization of the forces, energies, and materials of nature in the development, production, and functioning of engineering processes, apparatus, machines, equipment, facilities, structures, buildings, works, or utilities, or any combination or aggregations thereof, employed in or devoted to public or private enterprise or uses.
(b) An individual practices or offers to practice "professional engineering" within the meaning and intent of this section if the individual, by oral claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card, or in any other way, represents himself or herself to be a professional engineer, through the use of any other means implies that the individual is licensed under this part 1, or performs engineering services.
(11) "Professional engineer" means an engineer duly licensed pursuant to this part 1.
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(14) "Responsible charge" means personal responsibility for the control and direction of engineering work within a professional engineer's scope of competence. Experience may only be classified as "responsible charge" if the engineer is licensed pursuant to this part 1, unless the work involves an activity exempted pursuant to section 12-25-103.
