What you mean is,
No, what I meant was I am politely pointing out that you are making an unsubstantiated claim. If you now want to move the target timeline to any changes made to the licensing requirements since their inception in each jurisdiction, then more power to you. But, I will not play your game of making unsubstantiated statements and then trying to support them by changing the timeline after being called to task. There are people on this board who can probably recall when a comma and the word surveyor was all it took to be a surveyor, but that would not have been in the last 15-20 years.
As to the rest of your rambling nonsense, I see why you chose the pseudonym you have - because you need to get a grip on realty. That was a bunch of drivel that might come out of an AI chatbot (although lacking the intelligence portion).
While the concept of submitting past work examples for candidates sounds good, what judgement baseline would a board member or worse yet a state administrative clerk have to judge that the examples proved any competency. Like porn? "I can't tell you an exact definition, but I would know a good survey if I saw one" just like I know what a porn is. What happens when they fail an application registrant based on the submitted work?
I'm licensed in two states; both required work samples as part of the application process. Having seen both, there is a right way and a wrong way to make work samples a part of the application process.
North Carolina required a single work sample of what is called a GS 47-30 compliant map, a map suitable for recording in that county's map book. The map had to be an actual real survey in which you had actually conducted the work both in the field and office. The rules and requirements for preparing a map for recordation are clear, concise, and non-negotiable. A map either meets the requirements, or it doesn't. It doesn't matter if it's ugly, not the way you would have done it, or even flat wrong; if all the boxes are checked then it is suitable for recordation.
When I submitted this map for review, the only feedback I had was that my margins were incorrect, by a half inch on one side. That note was correct, I made the adjustment, and permanently updated my template.
I didn't feel that anything about that process was subjective, rather it confirmed that I had actually read, understood, and could execute the most basic of requirements for recording surveys in the State of North Carolina. If anyone wishes to practice land surveying, I find no issue that they should demonstrate mastery over the same very basic expectation.
Texas, on the other hand, was a different experience. I had to prepare two maps, one 'urban' and one 'rural'. They could be completely fabricated, a completely fictional parcel and record. When I submitted, the feedback I got was subjective, a demand that I adjust my basis of bearing from grid to instead a controlling line of the record survey I was retracing. Per the requirements, orienting to grid is perfectly acceptable, orienting to record is also fine, the choice for either is a preference.
I see no problem with requiring a work sample, so long as the requirements are clear, and the review is objective and fair.
32.7 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 61.1 percent are simply wrong.
It’s time to have a license for those who do boundary surveying and a license for those who don’t. A construction surveyor has to have very little knowledge of the law. I can’t prove it but based on the trend towards pincushioning, I believe we have surveyors getting licensed who have spent the greater part of their career doing construction surveying and someone signed off on their experience when they shouldn’t have.
Young guys who want to get licensed as land boundary surveyor’s deserve to know what the odds are of them getting the experience they need beyond becoming expert technician’s.
I think this idea is a good start, beyond the CST certs, and not licensed. Or licensed similar to say a PA/CRNA and a a physician.
Where there's a close relationship with the skills and autonomy that is limited to the physician at the highest level that can step in and not just oversee, but help assist with if necessary for the complex and beyond the scope of the lower licensed personnel and yet allowing them to practice their skills to keep the profession rolling forward.
just an idea.
Why do you think they have nurse practitioners? I think there is a place for improvement in the current requirements, and for those who can't get over their own ego long enough to see it, they can just sit on their throne and gripe.
Either you don't know what a nurse practitioner is or you are making a case against yourself. Yes, NPs are not doctors but are allowed to do some things a doctor do. But, and it is a big BUT, NPs are RNs with an advanced degree and internship. So they have a 4 year nursing degree plus 2 years of grad school for a total of 6 years of higher education and time served.
Why do you think they have nurse practitioners? I think there is a place for improvement in the current requirements, and for those who can't get over their own ego long enough to see it, they can just sit on their throne and gripe.
Either you don't know what a nurse practitioner is or you are making a case against yourself. Yes, NPs are not doctors but are allowed to do some things a doctor do. But, and it is a big BUT, NPs are RNs with an advanced degree and internship. So they have a 4 year nursing degree plus 2 years of grad school for a total of 6 years of higher education and time served.
Amen.
Most states allow NP to practice independently as a physician.
And now they're on the DNP path similar to physical therapy.
Surveyors have been dismissed and downgraded by title companies, lawyers and realtors for so long people just think they don't do anything except charge them too much for something they can do with their iphone.
Screw em.
Let them eat cake and create a morass of problems then let the title companies lawyers and realtors work it out.
would be entertaining to get front row seat for that.
can't wait to see a realtor dip a manhole and title company desk jockey cut some line to get a corner or verify the location of a contested pin.
Surveyors have been dismissed and downgraded by title companies, lawyers and realtors for so long people just think they don't do anything except charge them too much for something they can do with their iphone.
That wouldn't be such an issue, except we can't even agree among ourselves that it's a bad idea to lower the bar for licensure. When we fail to present a united front against this sort of thing, it makes it more likely that some of these efforts will succeed.
Surveyors have been dismissed and downgraded by title companies, lawyers and realtors for so long people just think they don't do anything except charge them too much for something they can do with their iphone.
That wouldn't be such an issue, except we can't even agree among ourselves that it's a bad idea to lower the bar for licensure. When we fail to present a united front against this sort of thing, it makes it more likely that some of these efforts will succeed.
and I hate to agree because I'm not licensed yet and in the 16 years of knowing about and then getting into and finding passion for the field, I hate that you're saying what I felt a while ago, and believe it is a perilous state we find the path of this career in right now.
I'm liking the post even though we both know it's a hard pill to swallow.
@adam This was a hot topic amongst some from NC recently at a convention here. I hope they can get this stopped for sure. One thing i have learned is i have been around and in surveying since the 90’s. Not all in land surveying. But the more I learn the more I realize what’s I don’t know. Even getting the license the learning never ends for a true professional. Constant education and being involved with those like minded professionals learning from each other. I was honored to interact and ask questions from some great surveyors in our free time. It was awesome to know when i get my license that they are available and willing to help me when I run into a issue. Always willing to guide help and mentor. Of course some require compensation through a liquid form but thats ok as well. So many topics in Land Surveying. I heard a gentleman state that the average age of someone becoming licensed was roughly 10 years longer than to become a dr. But how can one master or simply get ok with measuring law evidence technology in one year. Its not practical. Those are just the big picture things. Measuring we can break down to uncertainty error sources etc same with all aspects. I feel intimidated even meeting the minimum requirements to have the opportunity to get licensed. And the exam doesn’t scare me its the known ability that i will have such great responsibility when exercising that license that is the intimidating thing. That feeling i had overseas is almost the same as knowing i can cause harm to my clients or the neighbors of client’s if i become to confident and laxed in the performance of my duties. I know i met some top individuals this past week from multiple states. Learning right with me. Good luck NC surveyors. I hope y’all can preserve the profession. I am thinking about ya.
He must be including the party years. I think a lot of surveyors stumbled onto surveying as a career. At least I did. I wanted to be a forest ranger in the Adirondacks of NYS.
@fairbanksls One of the best surveyors i have ever known was originally a forest ranger. He was top dog in rural boundary work in the Public Land System. He could sniff out a stone like a drug dog. I worked with him in the field some years ago. He could pace as well as anyone i had ever been around. We had a healthy competition between us. I would practice pacing in hotel parking lot because he was better than I. He would try and beat me setting up a total station. I never could pace as well as him. But he never could set up a total station as well and quickly as i. . We had fun in those days. I would do my comps on a hp 32s II and he used the hp48. Two guys crunching numbers in a hotel room always checking each other’s work arguing but learning from each other always.
Just do what Massachusetts did. In a few years perhaps you will go to a Board meeting so they can flip a coin to see if you get licensed.
- The Board discussed concerns about the state-specific jurisprudence exam for applicants for Professional Land Surveying licensure. In December 2019, the Board discussed the issue and the exam committee made an initial recommendation to reduce the number of questions on this exam from 50 to 40. Board member Dennis Drumm, PLS, made a motion to reduce the number of questions from 50 to 40, keeping the same 2 hour exam time. The motion passed unanimously with one board member recusing herself from the discussion and vote.
Maybe it's me, but I'm not really following what you're saying. I understand the reduction, but not understanding what conclusions you're drawing from that
@jph From reading the Board's minutes there was a concern not enough people were passing the MA state specific exam. The passing rate was from 30% to 50% from what I can deduce from the minutes. The Massachusetts exam is not a recitation of statutes and regulations, I have heard it called a practical or applied exam. To solve the problem (so called) of people failing the exam the Board decreased the number of questions on the exam. The Board also stated this will not harm the quality of the exam. So now more people will pass and we will have more licenses. I guess if the passing rate stays low they will revisit the problem (so called) and drop another ten questions.
Less questions = More time = Better odds of passing
The PLS exam in New York is the only exam I’ve taken that I did not have time to complete. Back to back 8 hour exams are brutal and drains you more than a young lady when you’re in your mid 20’s.
Ok, now I understand. That said, I don't usually have a problem with time. And fewer questions just means that each question is worth more. So, if there are a few I don't know, they're going to count more against me.
Instead of passing with 15 incorrect answers, now that's a fail.
As long as they're not dumbing down the questions, I don't really see an issue.
