What are your thoughts about joining small engineering firm to provide surveying services? What are pro and cons from your experiences? What are the conditions (financial)under which this type of cooperation typically functions??
lsitnj, post: 452939, member: 7876 wrote: What are the conditions (financial)under which this type of cooperation typically functions??
It functions best when the surveyor owns 51% of the business.
Jim Frame, post: 452940, member: 10 wrote: It functions best when the surveyor owns 51% of the business.
🙂
On a more serious note, when you go from owning a surveying-only practice to owning part of a civil engineering practice, your ability to choose the work you take on is limited. That may not matter to those who mainly provide engineering support from start (boundary and topo) to finish (staking and as-built), but if you're like me and don't like dodging big yellow machines all day, the difference is stark.
Jim Frame, post: 452940, member: 10 wrote: It functions best when the surveyor owns 51% of the business.
Or more!
Jim Frame, post: 452942, member: 10 wrote: On a more serious note, when you go from owning a surveying-only practice to owning part of a civil engineering practice, your ability to choose the work you take on is limited. That may not matter to those who mainly provide engineering support from start (boundary and topo) to finish (staking and as-built), but if you're like me and don't like dodging big yellow machines all day, the difference is stark.
Thanks Jim..it would be primarily BTU for residential properties..not too much of layout work
Keep in mind that they may not fully understand what a surveyor does on a daily basis.
Most civil engineers pull on a surveyor to cut there subcontract costs or control something about the project timelines.
It is important to know why they need a surveyor on staff up front.
I was in a situation where all the guy wanted me to do was topo. And that would have been fine if he was ok with me picking my equipment rather then finding a deal and making me work with a data collector that could only hold 200 points before it started freezing and locking up.
The biggest headache you will have is going to be agreeing on what equipment or personnel you need. It is easy to start a civil firm. Office space, phone, computers, cad and personnel are all you need for a bare bones start up.
For a surveying firm you need all that plus trucks, instruments, and extra field personnel. All this and they start seeing all the profit out the window.
Good luck to you.
Have the hard conversations now rather then later.
Neil T has it right. What he said and...
Keep in mind that the overhead cost for a surveyor is much higher than an engineer.
You have all the software they have AND you have to have a bunch of equipment (that needs to be on regular replacement cycle).
You have to justify all purchases and it's uncommon for an engineering firm to understand, and be comfortable with that.
To get appropriate input, you have to be an owner. A principal level owner. And - you need to have enough clout (% of ownership) in the owners meetings to get the staff, training, office space, shop space, and equipment you need.
You need to be able to set the wages for your staff - independent of what other staff in the firm are making - they may be surprised to find that they have to pay more for a surveyor than an engineer. If you can't pay enough to hire competent help, your doomed.
I would also require that they agree (in writing) to working having a second licensed surveyor within... say 6 months to 12 months - someone that you hire. They must agree to offer that person (with your concurrence - after a period of time - another 6 to 12 months) associate level ownership - that's how you get a competent licensed second so that you don't have to be there EVERY day that work is being performed and it's way more powerful to have two surveyors in an owners meeting where you are laying out next years budget, bonuses, etc.
The other thing is you don't want engineers negotiating for you or establishing scope, schedule, or budget. This means that you really need to be in the office to be ready to respond to these situations.
While it's tempting to do the in-house work without a formal scope and budge you really need to have a defined scope and budget before you start work on an in-house project - otherwise you'll get pinched when the budget is inadequate. Make it clear that you won't work on ANY project where you haven't been involved in establishing/negotiating scope, schedule, and budget.
You MUST negotiate all of this before you agree to anything - you'll never be in as strong a position to negotiate as you are before you are on-board. An honest and competent engineer will understand this and will respect you more for laying it all out up front.
And.... get it in writing - get it in writing - get it in writing.
This can be rewarding if it's done right and the firm has the right people in it - remember, this will be tougher to leave than a marriage once you get wrapped into the business - make sure there is a clear and equitable exit path in place (in writing - this should be part of the LLC Operating Agreement or Corp charter) so that you aren't hosed over when the time comes.
Have an attorney review everything before you join the venture - it's not a sign that you don't trust folks - it's a sign that you are diligent.
There's lots more but I believe I've touched on the key points.
lsitnj, post: 452939, member: 7876 wrote: What are your thoughts about joining small engineering firm to provide surveying services? What are pro and cons from your experiences? What are the conditions (financial)under which this type of cooperation typically functions??
Stand up to the engineers.
Banter with them on their turf. Most civil engineering scenarios are not difficult and you are responsible to fix their mistakes anyhow.
Never let an engineer prepare your survey proposals. I worked for one who gave away a 30k ALTA for 4500. I asked if he realized what he did and he said he did as soon as the client showed up with the check in full the day he received the proposal.
lsitnj, post: 452939, member: 7876 wrote: What are your thoughts about joining small engineering firm to provide surveying services?
Joining to "provide surveying surveys" solely as an add-on to existing engineering services, bad; joining for each discipline to leverage the other to aid in their respective growth and profitability, good.
There is no one answer; there are multidisciplinary firms where the surveyors are the engineer's bitches, there are firms where the surveyors drive the profitability. It's all in the personality and choices made by the individuals. I've worked at firms where 90% of the survey work was tied to engineering. I've worked at firms where a seven figure stand alone survey contract I brought in moved us up 20 spots on the ENR500 that year...it takes a rare engineer to complain about that.
NEIL T, post: 452945, member: 12302 wrote: Keep in mind that they may not fully understand what a surveyor does on a daily basis.
Most civil engineers pull on a surveyor to cut there subcontract costs or control something about the project timelines.
It is important to know why they need a surveyor on staff up front.
I was in a situation where all the guy wanted me to do was topo. And that would have been fine if he was ok with me picking my equipment rather then finding a deal and making me work with a data collector that could only hold 200 points before it started freezing and locking up.
The biggest headache you will have is going to be agreeing on what equipment or personnel you need. It is easy to start a civil firm. Office space, phone, computers, cad and personnel are all you need for a bare bones start up.
For a surveying firm you need all that plus trucks, instruments, and extra field personnel. All this and they start seeing all the profit out the window.
Good luck to you.
Have the hard conversations now rather then later.
This is an issue in government agencies too. They can hire a PE, stick them in a padded box with confuser and voila you have a productive employee. Survey crews require a vehicle (which in government bureaucracy adds an entire new layer of complexity, can't just go to the dealership fleet office with checkbook and drive away plus budgeting and funding equipment, various pieces of expensive software plus licensing, etc etc. California calls getting a new position (called a PY=personnel year) a BCP (Budget Change Proposal) which is much more complex for Surveyors.
The Fire Department management is actually easier to work with because they have the same issue, the overhead for an Engine Company is several times the salaries, Engine, station house, property, code 3 utility pickup, etc.
lsitnj, post: 452939, member: 7876 wrote: What are your thoughts about joining small engineering firm to provide surveying services? What are pro and cons from your experiences? What are the conditions (financial)under which this type of cooperation typically functions??
Almost 2 years ago I started a surveying department for a small engineering firm and could not be happier. I am treated well and have the final voice in all things survey related. They pay me well and business is booming.
Because of the makeup of our contributors you will find most of the surveyors here don??t like this situation.
In contrast, most of my surveying career was working with engineers.
Some times I was an owner and sometimes not.
My take is that some surveyors do not have the company management experience or education to hold their own in marketing, budgeting, personnel or supervision.
This leads to someone else (an engineer) taking too much authority and leave the surveyor to be beat up (or was it beat down?) on many levels.
You have to be as strong as they are!
The work concept that I liked best in these employment situations was the diversified surveying that we accomplished.
Marketing will have to be something you enjoy doing and are successful at it.
You will have to create your own place in the company and by doing well, you will gain the respect of the engineers.
At two of the firms I worked for I became the Corp Sec and Corp Treas. You can fit in and you can be respected.
As with any group of people, some of them will not get along with others and you will have to sort that out, but that is true with anywhere.
If you are competent and strong, this situation could be much more rewarding than working for a surveying only firm.
$$$ and Satisfaction.
I spent 20 years with a small engineering firm, 15 of those running the surveying department. I think you'll find that whether it is a surveying company or an engineering company your satisfaction will depend on the people with whom you work. I worked with engineers who cared about the product we produced being right, that helps. We were almost entirely into county and city engineering and the majority of our survey work was "engineering" surveying. We did route surveys for water, sewer, gas and power, topos for lift stations, treatment plants and water tanks, I prepared easement and right of way documents and assisted the right of way agents in obtaining the necessary rights. I did all the deed research, note reduction, computation and prepared plats myself, easement sketches were prepared by draftsmen and reviewed by me. I had some really good crew chiefs (some of whom were licensed) and extremely rarely had a problem with their work. Good luck with your new venture.
Andy
Have you dealt with them or been aware of their reputation and quality of work?
If not I would inquire to see what and who I am getting involved with.
If they are a "fit in field" or "verify in field' plan type of outfit. Well........
Sometimes your work ethic and theirs may be miles apart and that is not going to be pleasant.
I don't think I'll ever do it again...
Better, in my experience, to be a surveyor in a survey firm providing survey services to the engineers...