I did an elevation certificate for a client several years ago. He sold the property shortly thereafter ($20+ million sale).
Last week I got a call from some insurance adjuster who could not read one of the numbers. The moment she told me the name and address, I said, "He does not own that property anymore, you should have the applicant get a new certificate."
She was unsure.
Given the fact that the document was produced in Adobe and the only way the any number would be illegible would be based on a copy of a copy or some other non-sense.
Can the new owners use the old elevation certificate? Even when my proposal to the previous owner specifically mandated that my work was for them alone and remained the property of my firm?
They shouldnt be able to use the certificate strictly based on the fact that it is old and the forms have changed with new requirements.
Can the new owners use the old elevation certificate?
Short answer is yes, elev. cert. are good forever as long as nothing has changed to the structure. The reason for this is that lets say in 1990 someone built to the required BFE. For insurance purposes they would be rated at a 0. In 2005 the BFE went up one foot. Using a new certificate they would be at a -1 but at the time they built, they followed all the requirements. The insurance rates would be much less using the old certificate vs. a new one.
FEMA does not want to penilize someone who built to the required BFE elev. at the time of construction even if the owners have changed.
> Can the new owners use the old elevation certificate? Even when my proposal to the previous owner specifically mandated that my work was for them alone and remained the property of my firm?
Therein lies part of your misunderstanding.
The first sentence in Section D mandates you submit a copy to the community official. This is intended to be the community flood plain manager. Many times the cert is for a building permit, so people think it is meant to be the building official, not so, even though he will want a copy. And in many places they are one and the same office.
Any ways, as such it is then part of the public record, available to all. The main intent is for the use by the flood plain manager for his management of flood plains. This helps put BFE determinations into the public record among other reasons.
Of course, I am from a recording state and am used to making much of my survey work available for the public's benefit.
If you look at it from the view of the insurance company, what could have changed, elevation wise, that would require another site visit by a land surveyor?
I wonder, when you have filled out a federal form, who really owns the results?
Yes, they can use it. However, you should charge an archival retrieval fee should they need any information from an old form. Anything past 6 months is archived in my office.
It only says make a copy for the building official. We provide that copy to the client to be able to file with the official.
Just because it's public record does not mean you can get a copy of it: try to get the architectural plans for a building.
I do not like this grandfathering idea that they should pay less when the flood zone changes. Their chance of destruction has increased and therefore the chance of us paying for their building has increased. Nevertheless, the flood zone is the same at this time. These buildings were built to withstand real catastrophe.
perfect.
next time i get a call like this, i will direct them to the federal government.
I wouldn't count on anything right now without verifying it with my state coordinator.
The previous thread on dissolving subsidized rates should be a warning light.
If the old map was done in '29 elevations and the old certificate in the same, and then new maps with new BFE's have been issued on the 88 datum, all bets are off until I know for sure.
Call your State FC:
http://www.floods.org/index.asp?menuID=274&firstlevelmenuID=185&siteID=1
I'd hate to tell someone something wrong, especially when it's a 20 million dollar property.....
> It only says make a copy for the building official. ......
That is a common misunderstanding. Read the first sentence in Section D again. It doesn't say building official, it says community official. If these are 2 separate offices, although some communities do combine them. Consider the cert issued for insurance purposes only, (guess what the "I" stands for in FIRM & NFIP), The building official does not want to see those certs. However, the community official does i.e. the flood plain manager.
> Just because it's public record does not mean you can get a copy of it: ......
Sure it does. Usually doesn' requiring invoking the PRA either.
note also that section D mandates that the surveyor provide a copy to the community official (i.e. the flood plain manager). Failure to perform this requirement could be considered failure to perform.
> note also that section D mandates that the surveyor provide a copy to the community official (i.e. the flood plain manager). Failure to perform this requirement could be considered failure to perform.
Not really ... it says "Copy both sides of this Elevation Certificate for (1) community official, (2) insurance agent/company, and (3) building owner."
It doesn't say I have to deliver copies to anyone, just that I have to make (at least) 3 copies for various parties. I deliver to the person who pays my bill. In fact, I always make 5 copies, and the owner can distribute those copies to whoever they are required.
8. How do I obtain a copy of the Elevation Certificate for my property?
The Elevation Certificate is one way for a community to comply with the National Flood Insurance Program requirement that the community obtain the elevation of the lowest floor (including basement) of all new and substantially improved structures and maintain a record of such information. The Elevation Certificate also is required to properly rate structures constructed after publication of the Flood Insurance Rate Map for flood insurance premiums.
If an Elevation Certificate has been prepared for your property, you may be able to obtain it from the property developer or from community officials. Communities often require preparation of Elevation Certificates for properties as part of the permitting process. You can contact your local floodplain officials or the planning and zoning office to see if an Elevation Certificate already exists for your property.
Elevation Certificates must be prepared and certified by a Licensed Land Surveyor, Registered Professional Engineer, or Registered Architect who is authorized by State or local law to certify elevation information. Community officials who are authorized by local law or ordinance to provide floodplain management information may also sign the certificate.
http://www.fema.gov/frequently-asked-questions-0/homeowners-frequently-asked-questions#hm8
Looks like they can use the old one. It makes such little sense given the changes in coastal flood zones.
And there in lies the real issue.
With new maps being prepared and almost ready to be implemented here on Cape Cod I can't believe that everyone doesn't need a new survey.
