Because this is playing out across the national discussion and view point of the GIS community,I wanted to include it here, cleaned up for content only, removing the peoples names and addresses etc as they aren't relevant. The message is the GIS community and the way they perceive the Surveying Boards, and the profession in general. I don't believe this is political, but if no one else is participating, and at least not listening to the outside opinions of this field, then we are doomed to whatever complacent results occur. To be sure, this is the 1600 people whom participate in the GISP online forum that I also belong to, and read and peruse as it is still an area I work in within my weird job duties. Take it for what it is.
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The _____ Policy Advisory Committee (PAC) has been monitoring state legislation for amendments to land surveying licensing laws that broaden them to include tasks and functions that we and other professionals are able to perform with the newer technology. This does not mean that traditional functions like establishing or retracing property boundaries to establish their exact, legal location doesn't still require a state licensed surveyor. It does not matter how accurate your GPS is. But some states have looked to expand virtually any operation that involves establishing location, no matter the purpose, to be land surveying and therefore require a license. Many states now, or are trying to, include photogrammetry and remote sensing under the definition or surveying.
For example, if you wanted to capture the location of fire hydrants or water meters that would have to be done under the supervision of a licensed surveyor according to some of these expanded definitions. Some would even extend to locating trees.
One bill we are following in Pennsylvania, HB 609 is the third iteration of legislation in that state that is in reaction to a lawsuit against the licensing board who took action against a company doing facility inventory for a power company as part of their asset management program. The way HB 609 is written that work could be interpreted as requiring a licensed surveyor.
To be clear, there are functions that are the domain of licensed surveyors and we aren't trying to erode or invade that. What we are concerned about is a state extending its licensing requirements into areas where that isn't required and impacts GIS professionals. For a discussion of professional boundaries see the URISA white paper.
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Thanks for your attention to this important issue, G____, and for this update, and for the reminder about the White Paper.
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It's heartbreaking that this issue persists after nearly 30 years. Surveying and GIS are allied professions, with separate and valued skills sets. Surveyors are skilled in determining legal boundaries and points and GISPs are skilled in compiling those boundaries and points with other, referential, data to analyze and visualize data relations. It's simple, yet some insist on making it difficult.
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I sure do agree with her.
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Agree 100%. This issue seems to persist for reasons I've never understood and recall discussing with my GIS students as far back as the late '90s. As you note, GIS Professionals and Surveyors are working in complementary disciplines that in many cases, particularly for legal boundaries, rely on and support each other.
Nonetheless, the issue continues to pop up from time to time as some sort of power grab or protecting of turf that is wholly unnecessary in my opinion.
I think the real question is, what is to be done about it? 30 years is a long time to be debating and (sometimes) fighting about this between professions when in fact we are doing quite well in the vast majority of contexts where the survey and GIS communities work together quite effectively. It seems there's just a small, and vocal minority that insists on continuing to proposes policies and legislation to protect their turf every once in a while.
Education is a big part of it, but curious what else we can/should be doing (collectively) as professionals in these disciplines to move past it.
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What is the end purpose of the information?
Hey, Bob, to find my house go up Murphy St. until you see a McDonalds on the corner, then turn right, etc.
The McDonalds in Asbury is about a quarter mile north of Asbury High School on the northeast corner of Murphy St. and Ryan Avenue.
The main entrance into the McDonalds which is generally located in the northeast quadrant of Murphy St. and Ryan Avenue is at state plane coordinates, Northing 143,539,173.028765; Easting 783,989.776876 (or lat/long such and such)
Going smaller:
The fire hydrant located in the northeast quadrant of the Murphy St, and Ryan Ave. intersection has a flow capacity of XXXX, etc.
The fire hydrant at state plane coordinates Northing 143,539,173.028765; Easting 783,989.776876 does not encroach into Lot 17, Block 85 of Happy Porcupines Addition to the City of Asbury as the state plane coordinates of the nearest point of the south line of said Lot 17 is at state plane coordinates..........................
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What is the absolute need for the information being massaged??ÿ What happens if that information is too crude and what is the definition of too crude?
We had a small town city superintendent who wanted to collect data on the precise location of every water meter connected to their water system.?ÿ His criteria was then anyone just hired to read meters could find them all using a handheld GPS unit.?ÿ He couldn't understand that the handheld unit he was using normally provided a plus/minus of 10 feet in any direction which didn't help much in finding one that had a two-wheel trailer parked above it.
I'm particularily interested in this: ?ÿ?ÿ
"As you note, GIS Professionals and Surveyors are working in complementary disciplines that in many cases, particularly for legal boundaries, rely on and support each other."?ÿ
No, Surveyors do not rely on GIS for boundaries.?ÿ It's a one way street there. GIS gets its boundaries from Survey.?ÿ Period.?ÿ This is where the 'boundary' needs to be understood.
two most recent (like, this week) personal GIS driven ratf*cks:
1. final plat can't be approved (after almost 3 years of jumping through various changing ordinances, jurisdictions, jurisdictional requirements...) because... the GIS manager's software offsets the lot labels by some factor that places one of the lot labels over a common lot line.?ÿ i told him i didn't have any other place to put it due to his 19 colleague's requirements for easements and accompanying labels.?ÿ he wouldn't budge.?ÿ so now in order to get a final plat approved in this county one must submit a CAD file that complies with all GIS manager's ESRI import settings as he doesn't have- nor can use- any CAD software himself.
2. fire drill survey on a large site up in Dallas tail end of the week before last as a site plan and zoning change request was reliant upon it, except nobody had remembered to order the survey.?ÿ so i get well paid to do an emergency as-built on what turned out to be a 12.5 acre tract that was entirely two rectangular warehouses surrounded by concrete and perimeter fences.?ÿ easy field work, iow.?ÿ drive back home, draft the survey, write the metes and bounds, problem solved for monday morning submittal...?ÿ DEFCON-5 emails monday morning at like 5 a.m. that the description and survey were wrong, that it was only supposed to be 8.657 acres or whatever.?ÿ "Hmmm..." i wonder.?ÿ site plan and zoning description were based on- guess what??ÿ now, in the end, the intention was to sever the tract between the two warehouses, but using that as a directive we got 8.315 acres- still a 15,000 s.f. difference.?ÿ so i was told i was wrong a second time.?ÿ those cats ended up spending three full days revising site plans, applications, dedications, reservations, etc, etc, etc because they'd built the entire house of cards off the city zoning GIS.?ÿ i went ahead and billed them for another full day of work after all the time i had to spend on the phone and email explaining the results of why i was hired in the first place.
I don't see a major problem.?ÿ How long will it take for the states to set up licensing boards?
To be certain....I'm not intending to widen the rift or create any new schisms to the tenuous relationship that can exist with GIS and Surveying, but again when people that don't have a professional license insisting and demanding things that have nothing but personal bias, should be smacked down the way anyone attempting to practice neurosurgery with no medical degree or training, and stand back and ask the professional how it can be fixed.
My deepest concern is that I feel the Surveying license is on a downward slide and if I finally do the work and get the schooling required to take the final steps and then it's decided that we no longer need surveyors, just GIS Analyst etc I'll be wholly disappointed we didn't try harder to define the profession, build and foster the relationships with GIS that we both need, and understanding that it will always be evolving for the betterment and protection of the public trust.
Can't we all just get along?!?!?!?!?
About as long as they can develop a niche for professional licensing liability insurance.
Which is unlikely because the vast majority of GIS is in government.?ÿ They are in most cases immune to liability. Go figure.
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Lest we forget here's a typical State statute concerning the purview of a licensed land surveyor:
A person, including any person employed by the state or by a city, county, or city and
county within the state, practices land surveying within the meaning of this chapter who, either
in a public or private capacity, does or offers to do any one or more of the following:
(a) Locates, relocates, establishes, reestablishes, or retraces the alignment or elevation
for any of the fixed works embraced within the practice of civil engineering, as described in
Section 6731.
(b) Determines the configuration or contour of the earth??s surface, or the position of
fixed objects above, on, or below the surface of the earth by applying the principles of
mathematics or photogrammetry.
(c) Locates, relocates, establishes, reestablishes, or retraces any property line or
boundary of any parcel of land, right-of-way, easement, or alignment of those lines or
boundaries.
(d) Makes any survey for the subdivision or resubdivision of any tract of land. For the
purposes of this subdivision, the term ??subdivision? or ??resubdivision? shall be defined to
include, but not limited to, the definition in the Subdivision Map Act (Division 2 (commencing
with Section 66410) of Title 7 of the Government Code) or the Subdivided Lands Law
(Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 11000) of Part 2 of Division 4 of this Code).
(e) By the use of the principles of land surveying determines the position for any
monument or reference point which marks a property line, boundary, or corner, or sets, resets, or
replaces any such monument or reference point.
(f) Geodetic or cadastral surveying. As used in this chapter, geodetic surveying means
performing surveys, in which account is taken of the figure and size of the earth to determine or
predetermine the horizontal or vertical positions of fixed objects thereon or related thereto,
geodetic control points, monuments, or stations for use in the practice of land surveying or for
stating the position of fixed objects, geodetic control points, monuments, or stations by
California Coordinate System coordinates.
(g) Determines the information shown or to be shown on any map or document prepared
or furnished in connection with any one or more of the functions described in subdivisions (a),
(b), (c), (d), (e), and (f).
(h) Indicates, in any capacity or in any manner, by the use of the title ??land surveyor? or
by any other title or by any other representation that he or she practices or offers to practice land
surveying in any of its branches.
(i) Procures or offers to procure land surveying work for himself, herself, or others.
(j) Manages, or conducts as manager, proprietor, or agent, any place of business from
which land surveying work is solicited, performed or practiced.
(k) Coordinates the work of professional, technical, or special consultants in connection
with the activities authorized by this chapter.
(l) Determines the information shown or to be shown within the description of any deed,
trust deed, or other title document prepared for the purpose of describing the limit of real
property in connection with any one or more of the functions described in subdivisions (a) to (f),
inclusive.
(m) Creates, prepares, or modifies electronic or computerized data in the performance of
the activities described in subdivisions (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (k) and (l).
(n) Renders a statement regarding the accuracy of maps or measured survey data.
Any department or agency of the state or any city, county, or city and county that has an
unregistered person in responsible charge of land surveying work on January 1, 1986, shall be
exempt from the requirement that the person be licensed as a land surveyor until such time as the
person currently in responsible charge is replaced.
The review, approval, or examination by a governmental entity of documents prepared or
performed pursuant to this section shall be done by, or under the direct supervision of, a person
authorized to practice land surveying.
It's pretty clear any "GIS" outfit attesting to accurate location either has to have an LS aboard or contractually acquire base data controlled by a PLS.?ÿ Or stay in their playpen and optimize bus routes, wildfire hazards, etc., which is useful stuff, but not land surveying.?ÿ?ÿ
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@Jitterboogie this issue seems to be heating up in several areas across the country.?ÿ Here in Oregon, keeping GIS and Surveying in their respective lanes is about to get revisited, this time a little muddled by engineering as well.?ÿ Some people are worried that it will disrupt the relative calm and peaceful co-existence we've enjoyed here for 20+ years.?ÿ Hopefully the issue can be reasonably settled and we return to a peaceful co-existence soon.?ÿ It was easy to not survey with the GIS when it was 1 meter black and white imagery with either no taxlot lines or obviously cartoon lines.?ÿ 3-4" color imagery and taxlots that are very good in many places almost becomes an attractive nuisance.?ÿ
I'd like to know the substantive difference between a GIS professional and a GIS technician?
How does a GIS technician become a GIS professional?
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@fairbanksls They may or may not be the same thing.?ÿ GISCI wants the difference to be having completed the requirements/documentation here, https://www.gisci.org/ GISCI has varying levels of support and criticism from members of GIS professional organizations as well as their own GISPs (based on the number that choose to let it lapse).?ÿ If GISP is required for Federal (and then State, local, and private) jobs, then it may gain traction.
I'd like to know the substantive difference between a GIS professional and a GIS technician?
How does a GIS technician become a GIS professional?
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In some cases they are one in the same.?ÿ You can gain GISP as a GIS Technician, Analyst, Specialist, Coordinator, Manager, etc. etc..
Or you can choose to not be part of the GISP entirely.?ÿ They used to give the title without the currently administered test, which is why a colleague of mine is waiting until the non test takers have to take the test before he applies to get the check box.
Main components are working in the field, Volunteer time, presenting at an event, attending events, a portfolio of work, and then taking the Geospatial skills assessment.
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They are correct about one thing.
At this point I CANNOT?ÿenter the clerk's office and research a newer deed, with the exception that they offer a computer terminal that will access the same program available to any computer hooked into the interweb.
No hard copies are available so it's a download. Being in the vault is irrelevant. The hard copies of the scanned originals are sent back to me sometimes and I guess title companies, attorneys or land owners.?ÿ?ÿ
So I am dependent on GIS if you consider the register program to be GIS.?ÿ
Locally there are some high quality GIS programs accessible to anyone. Check out Teton county Wyoming for probably the best one I've seen.?ÿ
Of course, Teton county is almost all federal land with some private enclaves which are very high dollar properties making money available.
I'm a big advocate of one county's decision to switch off parcel layers when you zoom in and a ortho layer is on. You can see the parcel layer if you turn off the ortho, or you can see the ortho, but you can't see both together once you are zoomed in close. I believe that would solve many issues with GIS.?ÿ
When looking activities that are considered to be in the scope of any profession, such as land surveying, it's important to consider two different but overlapping realms:
- Activities that unlicensed people are forbidden to do
- Activities that count toward the required experience for licensure
Relevant passages in the law for figuring out these two realms are often separated by quite a few pages (or equivalent) so quite a bit of reading may be needed.
My personal experience is that one does not have to be a professional engineer to design integrated circuits, but designing integrated circuits does count toward the experience requirement to become a professional engineer.
Only if under the review of and acknowledgment of the License engineer. No vacuum is allowed regardless of the genius behind it.
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Great example...Had a water district send me a CAD file with water line asbuilts on it and ask for a legal description around the water lines (new construction).
They had sent someone out and shot the line with some sort of GPS unit. No datum info, no control ties, nothing.?ÿ
Is that surveying?
That's a good legal question.... government employees aren't allowed to give out legal advice....;)
They had sent someone out and shot the line with some sort of GPS unit. No datum info, no control ties, nothing.?ÿ
Is that surveying?
I say no, but then again, maybe I'm wrong because it seems like plenty of licensed surveyors do the same thing.