To a point, but if you burn out all the existing staff to get to those great salaries the profession may have imploded.
Well, from what I've seen so far in my career I don't really care if these (most likely) overworked/underpaid lowballers get burned out of the profession.?ÿ I'm working with a survey manager now who isn't afraid to tell people to pound sand if they can't or won't pay, and I'll tell ya what it's incredibly refreshing.
@bstrand I??m not offended that you refer to those (these) small firms as lowballers. What I am offended by is, someone who obviously has a good head on is shoulders, speaking to matters that??s above one??s pay grade.?ÿ
moreover, I work longer and harder than any of my employees, everyday, 7 days a week for the last 2 plus years. I pay my guys overtime, when they work it, and I do not demand it, every holiday is paid time off, they??ve had over 20 days paid vacation over the last 18 months, I??ve had CoVid and had to shut my office down for 10 days and I did not take the PPP. I charge much more for what I do, than my nearest compatriot and I??ve given my guys bonuses and raises of the likes unseen in this professions history.
I would offer you a position if you would take it, however I??m looking for a licensed professional, that I??m willing to pay north of 120k per year and take over the firm wholly in 5 years. But I guess you??re not qualified. In the mean time I??ll just continue going ILC??s at three times the cost it was 2 years ago. I used to charge $225 for a typical residential property, last month my average was near $800. And ISP??s 2 years ago were around $900, today I??m upwards of 3k for just a small residential parcel, and we can??t get them down fast enough. Did I mention, that I??ve got over a month backlog??ÿ
so, I??m not sure who you??re referring as a Lowballer, but, I??m sure that it??s not me?ÿ
@bstrand well to be honest.?ÿ Until you get from working for to self employed.?ÿ You will never understand.?ÿ The game changes, when you have to pay employees and bills.?ÿ It's much easier to play the arm chair quarterback when the only skin in the game is your own.?ÿ Not saying I do, but if I ever have to lowball a price to make payroll, don't shame me for doing so, I have mouths to feed.
My ex-wife worked for a consultant who either owned his own company or was is a partnership for years.?ÿ He made excellent money.?ÿ His problem was that he looked at any minute he wasn't billing someone for the same as dumping your wallet into a trash bin and walking away.?ÿ He was working seven days a week plus sometimes working straight through for two or three days at a time before he would crash.?ÿ He was under thirty-five with a serious ulcer.?ÿ His kids barely recognized him.?ÿ All that was important was having more money.?ÿ And more money.?ÿ But, he allowed no time for spending it to benefit himself or his family.?ÿ Did I mention he made excellent money.
He could have billed out less than half as much time as he did and still have been considered wealthy and successful.
What a sad person.
We need to stop sometimes long enough to evaluate what really matters and why.?ÿ Having the fanciest casket is not a practical life goal.
@holy-cow?ÿ I lived that way for eight years, always on the road surveying the world.?ÿ One day my son, who was four years old at the time, asked me "Daddy, when am I going to get to see your house?"?ÿ That day I started looking for a new job.?ÿ Now I work a 9 to 5 and travel when I want to.?ÿ I don't make near the money that I used to, but it is totally worth it to have the time with my son.
Cue Harry Chapin
Was working out of town for a few weeks so trying to respond to some things.
I'm not calling you a lowballer at all.?ÿ In fact, I don't think being a lowballer has anything to do with company size.?ÿ It sounds like you treat your guys well, and that's good to hear.?ÿ I would just remind you that the overtime pay is not voluntary, and overtime benefits you (the owner) rather than your employee, as you are getting a half-price employee.
I'm not sure what ILCs and ISPs are, but if the price increases mean people are learning the value of land surveying services then that's great to hear.
I don't have dependents or employees to pay for but having those things doesn't give a potential client an excuse to devalue the work that I do, imo.
@bstrand?ÿ
I'd love for you to explain to me how paying OT is getting me a half price employee.
I??m not offended one way or the other. And more over, I respect you??re feedback. ?ÿI??ve been doing this thang called surveying for a long time now. And I??ve got think skin and I don??t really care anymore. As I believe that my reputation speaks for itself, I??m a good surveyor and gosh darn, people like me.
One thing I must say is, that I don??t like construction surveyin -in fact, I HATE IT?ÿ
I don??t like being told what to do or when to do it. Although I usually jump through the hoops that my client??s ?ÿsetup for me.?ÿ
ive always been afraid of losing a potential job, therefor I??ve been ??competitive? in my pricing. It??s done me well through the years and I??ve made a career of it.
but now I see that there is a shortage of PLS??s out there and not many new ones coming in. It??s now basic supply and demand. Rather than turning down jobs, I??ve been sending out proposals at crazy #??s and they??re biting.?ÿ
I guess that I??ve been that low baller through the years?? we??ll maybe, maybe not. What they say is that a product is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. I guess if I can get 3.5k for a residential property survey in the city that cost a mere $850 three years ago, I??m the fool, or, maybe, I just hit the lottery?ÿ
Because the intent of the overtime law (1938) was to discourage business owners from working their employees to death.?ÿ Rather than working 1 guy 80 hours (40 regular, 40 OT) it would be cheaper to hire 2 guys to work 40 hours each.?ÿ Now-a-days the cost of hiring a second employee is so high that it's cheaper to pay the overtime.
Overtime is supposed to be a penalty for the employer, but it's obviously scaled poorly over time.?ÿ OT today should be double or triple time so that it's cheaper to hire additional employees.
Anyway, that's how it's a half-price employee.
@bstrand?ÿ
For a short term seasonal increase OT makes sense.?ÿ For a sustained demand or an expanding business it doesn't.?ÿ
There is a point were productivity decreases in relationship to number of hours worked.?ÿ
Some people actually have a life after 40 hrs.
All true statements. I think that what @bstrand is pointing out is that most firms use OT in a manner inconsistent with its purpose. It really does depend on where you work, but I would say that at least half the firms I worked for used OT far too liberally.
By liberally, I mean putting additional employees on seriously mismanaged projects long after the original project team has screwed the pooch, as in months after the red flag should have been thrown.
The result was effectively required OT for weeks at a time, done by a select few employees (like myself) who were essentially the "cleanup" team who got handed a mess and a ton of stress like clockwork every month or two, with the expectation that we would "fix it" in record time.
In those cases, OT doesn't really compensate for that lost personal time, especially when work is all stress, all the time, and you know it's just going to keep happening. It's one of the reasons I have hopped around so much.
It's a catch-22 in my case, since I need the bigger-firm benefits due to family medical issues, but am exasperated by corporate surveying.
?ÿ
(I will note that I was just fine working OT in AK, where you hit 1.5 pay as soon as you go over eight hours in a day. And for remote work in the summertime, it's not like I had much going on after work anyways...but if I was back in ANC and I had 50+ hours by Wednesday or Thursday afternoon, I was heading for the backcountry that night, I didn't care how much work we had.)
If suffering a penalty makes sense then it seems clear to me that the penalty is too weak.
Speaking from my own experience I think just about every job I've had has told me I can work as much overtime as I want.?ÿ This didn't become a red flag to me until I got older, but in hindsight I realize there are a couple explanations for it-- 1.) I did such a poor job of negotiating my pay that even with the overtime penalty I'm still only making what my peers are making (or less) during regular time, 2.) my employer is bad at managing their money.
I think #1 is the most likely explanation.
Have you ever had an employer try to spin overtime pay as a bonus??ÿ I have... multiple times.?ÿ It's insulting now that I know the history of the law and the employer's most likely motivation.
As someone here recently quipped: "It isn't much use being the richest person in the graveyard".
