What has your BOR done FOR YOU lately?
Specifically, how has "regulating" your profession affected you in the last 10, 20, or 30 years?
In Florida, your dog could file a complaint with the Department of Business and Professional Regulation. Today, the same goes with the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services.
I have seen how the "regulators" operate. I have been "regulated" by Florida's DBPR. I have witnessed a number of good surveyors raked over the coals for such frivolous infractions as using the abbrev. "BM" on a survey sketch and not including "BM = Benchmark" in a legend.
While many good surveyors have been used to finance the operation of these Departments, it's true, a few bad ones have actually been caught and culled from the herd. I have financed these Departments for over 20 years and b!tch every two years at renewal time when I must pay $255.00 ($250.00 renewal fee and $5.00 unlicensed activity fee) for my LS license PLUS $355.00 ($350.00 renewal fee and $5.00 unlicensed activity fee) for my LB license PLUS anywhere from $400 to $600 for CEUs.
Just last month we had to pay an additional $100 for each license so the DOA could rev up the machine. That's 14 Bucks just to hang a license on the wall.
Oh well. Since there isn't any work, there won't be a mad rush of out-of-work crew chiefs trying to grab up work. When the development/housing market picks back up, you can bet a committee will meet to "regulate" us once again...
and the FSMS will be there to ring the alarm bell the night before.
I don't know, Be. A. I like to the think the BOR is there to regulate other people. If I keep my nose clean and include "BM = Benchmark" on my surveys, I think I'm okay. FWIW, and from what I've seen, the BOR doesn't make a point of seeking out abbriviation violations, although the requirement to spell out abbriviations is clearly stated in MTS ... those are usually tacked on to other, larger, complaints after the BOR reviews the work the complaint was filed over.
No monument requirements? No measurement standards? No more FEMA certs for land surveyors? No more ALTAs for land surveyors? Without licenses, standards, regulation, and accountablity, what would keep a highschool drop-out with a crackerjack compass and a size 12 shoe from advertising as a professional land surveyor? Nothing ...
I agree with you that the regulation here in FL has not been the best and I also have seen good surveyors get piled on over small infractions. I have also seen some of the maps that have come to the board and my 5 year old daughter could of done a better job. But to think no regulation would be better is a stretch.
"Oh well. Since there isn't any work, there won't be a mad rush of out-of-work crew chiefs trying to grab up work."
I could not disagree more. Every out of work party chief, instrument man and rod man will be advertising in the paper that they are a Professional Surveyor and the general public will have no idea who has the experience and education to actually be a professional surveyor verse the guy who has a vague idea of how to read a plat and needs beer money.
> I agree with you that the regulation here in FL has not been the best and I also have seen good surveyors get piled on over small infractions. I have also seen some of the maps that have come to the board and my 5 year old daughter could of done a better job. But to think no regulation would be better is a stretch.
I didn't mean to infer there shouldn't be some board of authority overseeing our profession. I'm thinking more along the lines of the way the medical profession oversees itself. We all know the powers that be that have regulated us for over 50 years have been an embarassment when compared to a board like that of the Board of Medicine.
> I could not disagree more. Every out of work party chief, instrument man and rod man will be advertising in the paper that they are a Professional Surveyor and the general public will have no idea who has the experience and education to actually be a professional surveyor verse the guy who has a vague idea of how to read a plat and needs beer money.
Well, as far as lot/block stuff goes, there isn't a pie to divy up these days. Advertising dollars don't come easy. Good equipment doesn't come cheap either. If you've been in business long enough, you know the Department hasn't stopped title companies, mortgage brokers, realtors, etc. from asking "How much?". When's the last time any of the shoppers asked about your qualifications? How about proof of E&O? I can tell you this, I have some good clients that know me and my service and won't give Harry Homeless and his T-16 the time of day.
Over the last 20 years, I've grown tired of the "How much?...so and so will do it for $XX" calls. I say, use the cheap guy and good riddance.
On the development end, the engineers I've worked with choose their consultants carefully. If you're not qualified, it becomes obvious pretty quick.
As for construction...good contractors know good layout guys...and machine control has changed a lot of our duties.
Good equipment doesn't come cheap either
Equipment? Where does it say I would be required to own equipment to survey boundaries in the new regulations? Let alone "good equipment" ... don't make me laugh ... and compass, a yard stick, and an iPhone with a GPS app, and I'm good to go.
> I don't know, Be. A. I like to the think the BOR is there to regulate other people. If I keep my nose clean and include "BM = Benchmark" on my surveys, I think I'm okay. FWIW, and from what I've seen, the BOR doesn't make a point of seeking out abbriviation violations, although the requirement to spell out abbriviations is clearly stated in MTS ... those are usually tacked on to other, larger, complaints after the BOR reviews the work the complaint was filed over.
Even with a squeaky clean nose, if you're active long enough, you WILL have a complaint filed against you. The process of being "regulated" is one that must be experienced to fully comprehend.
> No monument requirements? No measurement standards? No more FEMA certs for land surveyors? No more ALTAs for land surveyors? Without licenses, standards, regulation, and accountablity, what would keep a highschool drop-out with a crackerjack compass and a size 12 shoe from advertising as a professional land surveyor? Nothing ...
Nothing must be something because nothing is a noun...
> Good equipment doesn't come cheap either
>
> Equipment? Where does it say I would be required to own equipment to survey boundaries in the new regulations? Let alone "good equipment" ... don't make me laugh ... and compass, a yard stick, and an iPhone with a GPS app, and I'm good to go.
I stated the same thing to my Dad this afternoon. He's an 83 year-old retired surveyor with more "surveyor" in his little pinky than most surveyor's have in their whole being. I said, "How long 'til some guy with a smartphone and $1.99 app starts selling surveying and mapping services?" He just grinned. (Maybe I didn't say it loud enough? 😉 )
We need to give the Public that requests our services a little more credit.
The New Scenario:
G.I.M.'s (glorified instrument men) can do the $50 stake-a-line jobs that Mom and Pop want (just today a man told me it would take no more than half an hour for me to stake his line, as he had a piece of paper with degrees, feet and inches on it)
Environmentalists can do the wetland surveys that they've lusted after, with handhelds
Engineers can do the plats as well as the plans
GIS guys (if they do not know better) can do the "surveys" they want (parcel line layer maps with aerial)
---------------------------------
But somewhere along the line a property owner is going to want to know where the line really is. If they consult a good dirt lawyer, he may remember an old surveyor who could find the old lines, and recommend him. (because the property owner will not know).
So, wishfully thinking, there would still be expert-style work for good boundary surveyors. But since so many amateurs will be well-funded they may just bring in a "Barry Sheck" to bamboozle the jury and win.
If this bill passes, I doubt that it will increase the sales of Skelton, Clark and the gang.
How often does "the public" ask you for your references, or to see your license, or about the quality/calibration of the equipment you use, or complaints filed against you, how long you've been licensed, what level of education you have? For me, never. Not once. The public assumes that because you say your a professional land surveyor then you know what you're doing ... I really don't expect that change just because anyone could call themselves a professional land surveyor.
> How often does "the public" ask you for your references, or to see your license, or about the quality/calibration of the equipment you use, or complaints filed against you, how long you've been licensed, what level of education you have? For me, never. Not once. The public assumes that because you say your a professional land surveyor then you know what you're doing ... I really don't expect that change just because anyone could call themselves a professional land surveyor.
I hear you. Educating the Public is the key here.
Steve Adams touched on an important point. Validation of our qualifications. Those of us that jumped through the hoops in order to hang that meal ticket on the wall have something the GIM doesn't. It's our job to sell it.
> I didn't mean to infer there shouldn't be some board of authority overseeing our profession. I'm thinking more along the lines of the way the medical profession oversees itself. We all know the powers that be that have regulated us for over 50 years have been an embarassment when compared to a board like that of the Board of Medicine.
>
I would like this also and I imagine 99% of surveyors would too. The problem with the FL bill is it strips out all oversight of our profession and personally I will take a flawed board like we have now that somewhat keeps surveyors honest to nothing which is what we will be left with.
> Well, as far as lot/block stuff goes, there isn't a pie to divy up these days. Advertising dollars don't come easy. Good equipment doesn't come cheap either. If you've been in business long enough, you know the Department hasn't stopped title companies, mortgage brokers, realtors, etc. from asking "How much?". When's the last time any of the shoppers asked about your qualifications? How about proof of E&O? I can tell you this, I have some good clients that know me and my service and won't give Harry Homeless and his T-16 the time of day.
> Over the last 20 years, I've grown tired of the "How much?...so and so will do it for $XX" calls. I say, use the cheap guy and good riddance.
>
I'm in the same boat with you as far as mortgage works goes. When people call me I tell them it is 2% of the selling cost of the home as it has gotten to the point that the time and liability far exceed the tiny amount they want to pay. That said there are licensed surveyors that make a living on solely doing them and granted now the market is down for them it will always fluctuate. These surveyors will probably feel the pinch of deregulation the quickest and though it might not be the type of work you or I choose I'm not on board with a bill that will certainly eliminate their work.
> On the development end, the engineers I've worked with choose their consultants carefully. If you're not qualified, it becomes obvious pretty quick.
>
> As for construction...good contractors know good layout guys...and machine control has changed a lot of our duties.
Construction, development, As-builts, FEMA certs, ALTA etc is the bulk of my work. I have not had the luxury to develop 20+ year relationships with my clients like you have but I'm sure the bulk would stay with me for awhile. But cost drives this down market.
It worries me that we are just chipping away at what surveyors can do. We have already given contractors the ability to have as many lay out crews as they want. With deregulation you will be giving FEMA Certs and ALTA Surveys to solely Engineers. Lot/Block will be up in the air to anyone who will answer the phone and do them cheaply (whether they can do them or not). What stops the contractor from saying the project manager is a professional surveyor and signing his own as-builts. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic but it seems the small piece of the pie we had is being given away.
No, you're exactly right. Without standards, a print off from the county GIS with the aerial overlay is a boundary survey ... who's to say it's not... I can't imagine any competent boundary would want to stay in Florida if this passes.
ALTAs/El Certs will go to engineers unless ALTA/FEMA removes the requirement of a licensed person's stamp.
State/County/City survey projects will probably go to engineer/surveying firms only, with the engineers required to sign for the survey portion.
Construction layout will go the lowest bidder, it always does. How low will you go to beat out "Harry Homeless"?
As-builts can be red-lined by anyone at the construction company.
Boundaries and Topos will be a crap shot, but I suspect they will eventually be overrun by unqualified, out of work, party chiefs and I-men, who will do a terrible job ...
Lacking standards, I have no doubt that mortgage surveys will quickly evolve to the low standards of "mortgage inspection sketches" (or whatever they are called in other states), based on the rag tape and guess work, no monuments set, etc., and when the title companies realize they are not worth the paper they are printed on they will stop ordering them...
Yeah, I have a rosey outlook of how this will all play out ...
When's the last time any of the shoppers asked about your qualifications? How about proof of E&O? I can tell you this, I have some good clients that know me and my service and won't give Harry Homeless and his T-16 the time of day.
Over the last 20 years, I've grown tired of the "How much?...so and so will do it for $XX" calls. I say, use the cheap guy and good riddance.
On the development end, the engineers I've worked with choose their consultants carefully. If you're not qualified, it becomes obvious pretty quick.
The problem that Florida is going to have without licensure is the engineers will go wild. That's where the problem is going to come from, it won't be the party chiefs or I-men. Florida LS's need to fight this thing tooth and nail.
As a Florida Professional Surveyor and Mapper you have proof that you passed the NCEES exam, only 25% of which was Florida specific.
I will continue to sign and seal FEMAs, ALTAs, Plats, Asbuilts, etc. whether this bill passes or not.
In Florida if we had a state society that was worth a damn and responsible and effective leadershiop for the Board, I do not think these issues would be as big of a problem as they are today.
All the Board wants to do is constantly revise MTS and the FSMS, well, I have no idea what they do for me as a surveyor. Other than throw a nice convention once a year.
From my experience, BORs don't just stand around looking for trouble. Usually all they have to go on is complaints from consumers or other professionals, or things that come up as a result of non-surveying criminal behavior, such as embezzling from the company or failing to provide the deliverables after payment. It's ultimately down to the quality of complaints that come in - and, note that complaints from other professionals are virtually nonexistent, which likewise does not serve to maintain a high degree of competency.