When is a corner monument, not a corner monument?

Sorry about your situation.

You need a land surveyor who understands what boundaries are made of and not a couple of measuring technicians.

Maybe the Judge knows one?

Keith

Keith,

Judge wants the two surveyors to pick a third surveyor.

Gary

..Good idea, If you had an even number of surveyors it could be a tie. 🙂

None of those mentioned will do a thing for you except spend your money and leave a bad taste in your mouth. What you need now is an attorney who is a specialist in land law, most only know enough to sound knowledgeable to the uninformed. Check with the Bar for a list of attorneys who specialize in land law and then start checking to find out which of them really knows their stuff. You have a mess that requires sound legal advice and knowledge so you can defend your rights and perhaps even recover damages, you are not getting what you need now.
jud

Seems like a lot of money to spend over 6". Can't both surveyors get together and come to an agreement?

> Keith,
>
> Judge wants the two surveyors to pick a third surveyor.
>
> Gary

I'm presuming you already have an attorney involved since you mentioned a judge being involved. Attorneys and judges are, for the most part, not well acquainted with surveying equipment and procedures. The judge may be searching for an independent "third surveyor" to evaluate and explain the surveying conflicts of the two existing surveys. The monuments are evidence and the judge needs to understand why each surveyor used specific monuments.

Surveying equipment has quickly become more accurate. There may be a difference in the measurements made today between original monuments and the measurements reported in the original survey. If this is the case there is likely state law and previous case law (appeals & state supreme court cases) in your state to guide the judge in deciding your case. The judge needs to understand all these details and likely needs an independent surveying expert to assist in that understanding.

> When is a corner monument, not a corner monument?

Simply put, a corner monument is a corner monument ONLY when it occupies the position of the property corner.

I would ask each surveyor for a written "surveyor's report" containing specific and detailed explanations of why each "monument" (either set or found) was either rejected or held as the property corner. If either surveyor refuses to supply you with a report, get the denial in writing. The surveyors may want to be compensated for their time preparing the report, but I would seriously consider paying them a reasonable amount.

This report can be very valuable. First it will give you an idea of the professionalism and confidence of the surveyors. Second, it will force each surveyor to review his work, possibly changing one's conclusions. Third it gives you a potentially very important piece of evidence as you move forward.

At first I thought Jud was a little premature, but as I think about it more, I would definitely at least locate a very competent land law attorney, if for nothing else to review the reports.

>
> Judge wants to call in a third surveyor to settle the dispute.
>

Good grief! Hold off on this if at all possible until you get the reports and can have them reviewed by a knowledgeable attorney or a knowledgeable surveyor or preferably both.

The other option is to work out a settlement with the neighbor or seriously consider if 1 foot of land (or less) is really worth an expensive legal battle. I would at least get the reports before doing anything.

Good luck and keep us informed.

Brian

Keith,
Thank You,

It helps to hear the rationale and insight in times like this to keep the perspective grounded.

Mr. Barber sure uses a lot of surveyor lingo. I'm having some doubts.

It is entirely possible that the Judge knows from experience that a certain land surveyor, who may have been an expert, in a previous case, can be trusted to give a professional opinion.

Just saying?

Keith

This is one of the most frustrating things about our profession. Each surveyor will defend their solution as if their entire future career is on the line. A third surveyor will do the same thing, especially if he disagrees with both of the first two. Clients should be able to believe that the product delivered by their surveyor is above serious questioning.

Unfortunately, we all know that we make many decisions about numerous factors influencing our opinion about each piece of evidence we uncover during the survey. One surveyor, highly knowledgeable in the earlier surveyors working a small geographical area may put increased weight on certain factors that other surveyors, who work a much wider area, may not view as important whatsoever. Another surveyor may tend to ignore survey monuments set by a specific surveyor based on rumors as to sloppiness and disregard for standards. Yet another may subscribe to the theory that the deed trumps any evidence to the contrary.

I was disgusted by a judge who had already decided he did not like one of the two parties in a boundary dispute. He was going to rule in favor of the other fellow no matter what evidence was presented. At one point, the judge asked me to explain a complaint I had with the court appointed surveyor's work. After explaining that the court appointed surveyor was not permitted to use all of the information available from the two surveyors whose work did not agree because the judge had explicitly directed him to have no contact with either of us and to not look at either survey, the judge laughed and said, "So, you are telling me he did an improper survey because of my instructions." "Absolutely!", was my response. The court appointed surveyor had not done extensive searching for surveys in that section AND ADJOINING SECTIONS. The result being his answer was nearly identical with the other surveyor who had done even less research in the available records in the courthouse. The judge did not want to hear anything that might force him to rule against his friend.

Brian,

Good advice! Thank You
I have read that "field notes" should be taken on all surveys and there should be no erasing done in the correction process.
Are written "surveyor's report" the same as "field notes"?

Gary

> Mr. Barber sure uses a lot of surveyor lingo. I'm having some doubts.

For the last six months I have been doing my home work!

No, they aren't the same.

The field notes are the raw data. I personally erase, that's why I use pencil. I have never had a Judge or Attorney look at my notes; they are more interested in the final product.

A Surveyor's Report should explain what evidence was used, what legal principles were used to arrive at the location of the boundary.

Recently a client I did a survey for 5 years ago had a dispute with his neighbor over the boundary I had determined. His Attorney asked me for an expert's report which I did in the form of a Declaration signed under penalty of perjury at the bottom. That was enough to resolve the matter because the neighbor agreed to accept my opinion on the boundary location. I did receive a fee for that work.

It sounds like Mr. Barber's problems have, unfortunately, been going on for some time now and he has been paying attention to what has happened, and is learning.

Or you may be right. But for now, I have no reason to doubt his honesty and sincerity, and will presume he is honestly looking for help from other professionals, which in no way should be discouraged. I have seen, and continue to see the damage many surveyors do to clients and their neighbors. Maybe, just maybe, someday the incompetent surveyors will be forced to pay for the damages they have caused. The problems he describes are far too commonplace in our profession. I see the "expert measurer" choas nearly everyday.

And many wonder why we can't charge an appropriate fee for our services..........

Most of us, me included, have not used actual field notes in years. Most of what we do now is electronic data collection and staking.

> Brian,
>
> Good advice! Thank You
> I have read that "field notes" should be taken on all surveys and there should be no erasing done in the correction process.
> Are written "surveyor's report" the same as "field notes"?
>
> Gary

No, the field notes (if any are taken) are usually just notes for the surveyor. A surveyor report should include the evidence, both that which is used and that which is rejected, and the reasons for each. A report should be a written discussion of his professional opinion and how the conclusions were reached.

The "erasing" thing is pretty much one of many surveyor myth's that have infiltrated our profession. There is nothing illegal or unethical about erasing errant marks or mistakes in the field notes. Destroying or altering evidence is a whole 'nuther nut though.

Thanks All,
This has helped.

I now have a little more information to help us understand this, that is happening to us.

Gary

> Seems like a lot of money to spend over 6". Can't both surveyors get together and come to an agreement?

That's what I was thinking. Fire the surveyors and the lawyers, get together with the neighbor over a beer and stick a new pin between the other three and yank all the other pins and pitch them over the bank.