I've run across this situation before and know what I'm going to do but maybe one of you will change my mind.
Situation: 23 yrs. ago small farm was split into 7 tracts with 20 acres being reserved for the owner behind the smaller tracts. Famous local surveyor (or infamous) does the original split, pins everything then the owners sells the tracts. He walks the tracts with the people buying the land pointing out the pins, every body agrees to the land/price.
23yrs later to of the smaller tract owners are in a p***ing match in regards to a common line. Both get surveyors on their tracts and by God both surveyors tell their clients that the original surveyor shorted them 200 feet. The lines were to be 1535 and were only 1335. They set their pins at 1535, mark the old pins and that's that. One of the owners goes out and plows up the area he was shorted.
Farmer goes out to mow his CAUV land and sh*ts his pants. Nobody had contacted him to tell him their was a problem. I tell him that most surveyors in the area wouldn't, they'd leave it up to their clients to contact him and work it out.
I go out and sure enough the original surveyor had reported the rear line in the wrong spot. My client tells me that the pins were placed where he told the surveyor to put them. He didn't measure to them because that's what your hire a surveyor for. He didn't care about the extra 200ft because the tracts had more than enough acreage for min. lot cuts. He wanted them there because of some existing features that made farming past the point impractical. If you went further east on the south line you'd have found a pin called for on the platted south line extended. This was where it should be based on the found rear pins. It appears that the original surveyor hadn't surveyed each east/west line, he'd only surveyed the north line (a section line) then threw out a traverse point in the rear to set those pins and tie-ing in that south pin on the east/west line, loosing 200ft along the way.
The original surveyor is dead so he's not in the picture anymore.
Maybe the original surveyor had a "scrivener’s error" and the two following surveyors should have corrected the paper not the ground?
Interesting ....not sure what i would do except show the situation and let the attorneys fight it out..
One, intent of conveyance as shown by the grantor to the grantees, that is what they thought they were purchasing. What comes first? the monumentation by the surveyor and confirmed by grantor...or the map. I say the surveyor errord in making the map and descriptions and the monumentation controls.
Of course there is always the caveat that a discrepancy goes against the grantor. I am leaning toward my first thought
1. Purchase an introductory to boundary law textbook
2. Duct tape it to a cinderblock
3. Toss it through the other “surveyor’s” office window one night
😛
NYLS that's what I've done. Now that the other guys have just pinned the deed and there's already a big ta-doo over the situation I feel like I have no other choice. Normally I'd have tried to get the parties together and worked out something agreeable to all.
James, I'm tempted to do just that.
> I've run across this situation before and know what I'm going to do but maybe one of you will change my mind.
>
I run into this nearly everyday, as most of you do. Where are the perfect measurements? I've never found them.
> Situation: 23 yrs. ago small farm was split into 7 tracts with 20 acres being reserved for the owner behind the smaller tracts. Famous local surveyor (or infamous) does the original split, pins everything then the owners sells the tracts. He walks the tracts with the people buying the land pointing out the pins, every body agrees to the land/price.
>
Good grief! The famous local surveyor is the ORIGINAL SURVEYOR. Follow his footsteps as confirmed by the actions and intentions of the landowners.
> 23yrs later two of the smaller tract owners are in a p***ing match in regards to a common line. Both get surveyors on their tracts and by God both surveyors tell their clients that the original surveyor shorted them 200 feet. The lines were to be 1535 and were only 1335. They set their pins at 1535, mark the old pins and that's that. One of the owners goes out and plows up the area he was shorted.
>
I sure hope the landowners sue both surveyors, and the Board severly disciplines them. But, then again I hope for many things that never seem to come true.
> Farmer goes out to mow his CAUV land and sh*ts his pants. Nobody had contacted him to tell him their was a problem. I tell him that most surveyors in the area wouldn't, they'd leave it up to their clients to contact him and work it out.
>
The surveyor shouldn't be telling anyone "there is a problem" until the surveyor has ALL the evidence, and especially shouldn't be moving original boundaries without the express consent of everyone concerned. He should have been performing a resurvey/retracement, not correcting measurement "errors" of the distant past. The map as "drawn" on the ground controls, not the "paper map" or the distances in the "deed".
> I go out and sure enough the original surveyor had reported the rear line in the wrong spot.
No, the original surveyor was correct, it the following surveyors that have errored.
> My client tells me that the pins were placed where he told the surveyor to put them. He didn't measure to them because that's what your hire a surveyor for.
Further, the present landowners hired a surveyor to find their boundaries, not create strife and heartache throughout the neighborhood.
>He didn't care about the extra 200ft because the tracts had more than enough acreage for min. lot cuts. He wanted them there because of some existing features that made farming past the point impractical. If you went further east on the south line you'd have found a pin called for on the platted south line extended. This was where it should be based on the found rear pins. It appears that the original surveyor hadn't surveyed each east/west line, he'd only surveyed the north line (a section line) then threw out a traverse point in the rear to set those pins and tie-ing in that south pin on the east/west line, loosing 200ft along the way.
>
Does it get any plainer than this????
> The original surveyor is dead so he's not in the picture anymore.
He may be dead, but his footsteps live on for those only willing to see them and honor them as the landowners have (well, until the jack-legs show up on the site).
Scott, I couldn't agree more.
> Interesting ....not sure what i would do except show the situation and let the attorneys fight it out..
>
I hope you forgot the sarcasm font.
> One, intent of conveyance as shown by the grantor to the grantees, that is what they thought they were purchasing. What comes first? the monumentation by the surveyor and confirmed by grantor...or the map. I say the surveyor errord in making the map and descriptions and the monumentation controls.
>
The following surveyors commited egregious errors by not gathering the evidence and following the law, thus creating chaos in the neighborhood.
> Of course there is always the caveat that a discrepancy goes against the grantor. I am leaning toward my first thought
What discrepancy?
That is what title insurance is for.
Have seen this many times.
I survey what I find, show what the deeds describe, turn it into the client and advise them to talk with an attorney if their neighbor disagrees with what they want to do.
That is what title insurance is for.
I've only seen title insurance pay once. If they do pay I'd be suprised; but it's worth a shot to file a claim.
> That is what title insurance is for.
>
Why is this a title problem?
> Interesting ....not sure what i would do except show the situation and let the attorneys fight it out..
> NYLS that's what I've done.
What service are you providing by doing this? The client hired you to provide a professional opinion, not to just document what he already knows to be the case and send him to an attorney.
The surveyor is the expert here. The surveyor should try to resolve the issues and only refer to an attorney as the last resort. Call the other two surveyors and discuss the situation. If they refuse to do so, refer your client and the neighbors to an attorney to sue their arrogant, negligent butts.
:good: :good: :good:
I assume that in addition to the survey there is a legal deed recorded for each parcel? This is what the landowners own title to. I am not sure that a surveyor's error on the ground will override what was intended in the legal description if this goes to court to be settled.
I couldn't agree more Brian.
Only a court of law can determine where the property line is. We can only report what we find, advise the owner and/or his representative of the case law we are aware of in this area, however, we can not go out and officially say this is or is not your property line. There is a definite discrepancy by 200 feet between where the deed says the line is supposed to be and where the line was monumented? What caused this 200 foot discrepancy? Did the original surveyor have something incorrect in his field notes?
I had a case where we had a map prepared by a surveyor showing where he and the land owner had set lot corners, problem was when he drew his map he made all lots a right angles, yet the monumentation indicated that the lots were skewed, distances between monuments on the ground an on the map agreed, directions were off. My opinion as given to my client and to his attorney was that the surveyor did not correctly draw the map and even though the map was filed, the monuments as place by the surveyor and the land owner controlled. That was my opinion only, as I first stated, only the courts or agreement by land owners can correct the filed map. In this instance my arguments convinced the opposing attorney and he directed his client to accept the lines as they were on the ground and not as there were on the filed map.
This is not a title problem. The questions is what was sold by the grantor to the grantees.
Scott McLain, Above has it right. Now, it is time for the title co to ante up. Time for them to pay. They get the cut rate surveyor, and now it is time to pay the piper. That's life. DOCUMENT the heck out of it, and change the paper work. The original farmer is not at fault.
Nate
> I assume that in addition to the survey there is a legal deed recorded for each parcel? This is what the landowners own title to. I am not sure that a surveyor's error on the ground will override what was intended in the legal description if this goes to court to be settled.
No, there is no problem with the title. The landowners have title to what the original surveyor marked on the ground, which is what the original grantor intended to sell, which is what the grantees intended to buy.
These are the same principles as when the feds surveyed and marked sections on the ground, reported the survey in notes and on plats, the marked boundaries control. If a landowner patented an entire section of land, which was reported as being 5280' x 5280' (640 acres), are there title problems when the actual marked section only measures 5220' x 5220'? After all, the grantor represented a full 640 acres and the grantee intended to buy and actually paid for 640 acres, is the patentee entitled to a partial refund (or a title correction) when a resurvey shows he was shorted?