Mr. Fierro states,
"A Land Surveyor, however; typically has only limited knowledge and experience in different construction survey techniques and a basic procedural format for construction staking."
This quote is simply not true IMHO
[sarcasm] maybe I should hire this guy to teach me how to do construction layout[/sarcasm]
You cannot argue with this quote from the article "...Many large contractors have lost millions because of bad layouts and inexperience on construction surveying..."
Might you agree with the article if it said that you should only accept work you are qualified to perform?
Without blasting the guy, I think he's trying to carve a niche. Nothing wrong with that. I actually responded to him on linkedin and I kinda took it easy on him. In my opinion this has to be directed at Contractors and home builders because it really doesn't address anything. Anybody can claim accuracy and precision, but as Mr. Hardison pointed out earlier not many can quantify it or prove it.
This is part of a much broader problem in the Construction Industry. It is really a byproduct of inbreeding, where Carpenters and Laborers move up the food Chain and become Project Managers and General Supers. In this environment anybody with a good line of BS will thrive since there is very little competence or understanding associated with decision making as to who or what is a Good Surveyor. This gives way to this type of so called "Specialist". If in fact there was a legitimate License to practice Construction Surveying it would probably be more technically oriented (much more math and science) than an Boundary License. Why? Because the liability is substantially higher. I'm not talking frame construction or footers (as some on here call em) or blue tops.
I was once called down to be the LS on a major Tunnel Project, as soon as I was approved by the MTA I was called in for an interview. It seemed on the surface to be an ideal situation as soon as I got there I was met by someone I recognized a Laborer with a title and the flag went up immediately, after spending some time talking with the Dragados people (who unfortunately are new to the game and probably aren't aware of this individual or anything else), I turned them down. I knew what was coming. Now they hired some guy (with a license) who they are paying to train (i.e. they are training him). In the meantime, the individual who I mentioned earlier is working hard to throw my buddy under the bus. My friend is probably the premiere Tunnel Surveyor in the Northeast. I wonder if it ever dawned on Management to check Jim's credentials and compare them to Mr. Big Shot's. It'll probably never happen and the vicious cycle will continue.
As long as this upside down toxic world exists, where ethics and morals take a back seat to Bullsheet. This type of specialty will have a place.
Now no offense intended to those who are legitimately skilled in this arena, because the reality is that just because you have a license doesn't mean you're qualified or competent in this area.
Here's an example of what he will provide, if we were working together and he used these ebonics type signals I'd need a translator and I've been in the game for quite a while.
[flash width=420 height=315] http://www.youtube.com/v/9QL4_8swFZ8?hl=en_US&version=3 [/flash]
With regard to this statement:
Mr. Fierro states,
"A Land Surveyor, however; typically has only limited knowledge and experience in different construction survey techniques and a basic procedural format for construction staking."
This quote is simply not true IMHO
How do you gain knowledge or experience in something if you've never done it?
Come by one day, grab a chair and I'll spend a week telling you stories.
Ralph
> You cannot argue with this quote from the article "...Many large contractors have lost millions because of bad layouts and inexperience on construction surveying..."
>
> Might you agree with the article if it said that you should only accept work you are qualified to perform?
Indeed, that quote is very true and I would agree that one should only accept work that they are capable of.
I have to wonder what job sites and what equipment he is woring with.
I want to clarify my thoughts on this statement, "This is part of a much broader problem in the Construction Industry. It is really a byproduct of inbreeding, where Carpenters and Laborers move up the food Chain and become Project Managers and General Supers."
There is nothing wrong with career advancement as long as the individual has done his/her part to develop professionally, ass kissing or being connected don't qualify.
Ralph
:good:
>
> This is part of a much broader problem in the Construction Industry. It is really a byproduct of inbreeding, where Carpenters and Laborers move up the food Chain and become Project Managers and General Supers. In this environment anybody with a good line of BS will thrive since there is very little competence or understanding associated with decision making as to who or what is a Good Surveyor. This gives way to this type of so called "Specialist".
> As long as this upside down toxic world exists, where ethics and morals take a back seat to Bullsheet. This type of specialty will have a place.
> Now no offense intended to those who are legitimately skilled in this arena, because the reality is that just because you have a license doesn't mean you're qualified or competent in this area.
>
>
> Ralph
Very well put, Ralph.
Stephen
From the article: "Construction Surveyors, back in the day, were perfectionists."
Gotta love comments like that, my favorite is "back when I was in the field...".
Also:
“Give him the monuments, two geometric points for the project, and throw him a full set of plans. If he is able to be one hundred percent self sufficient in his layouts through the whole project, then you’ve got yourself a Construction Surveyor.”
Might want to throw in a third point there, you know, for the perfectionist.
Haha, Made me laugh.
By your reactions,:-P I'd say most of you are land surveyors.
> Might want to throw in a third point there, you know, for the perfectionist.
So glad I didn't just gulp a mouthful of coffee before I saw that. Could have sprayed the screen, keyboard, HP handheld, today's field book and a new pistola.
Transit, chain and plumbob was enough for any surveyor to build the whole of our founding infrastructure. That would be from the Pyramids unto the 1970's, when innovations and advanced technologies retired these tools of thousands of years of facility.
Takes 4 points to make a square. Takes 1 to make a circle. If the project manager does not understand this he should leave all survey matters to someone who does. It's 3rd grade geometry that proves the layout.
True, all geometry is pretty simple, the trick is when and where to apply it. In my past experience the problem with most land surveying firms doing construction was getting things done on time.
Land surveyors are thoughtful and want time to study the plans in depth, when the revisions are issued and they need layout in minutes, many times rough just to see what has to be moved, it is hard for them to react quickly so as to keep everything rolling along.
One firm I had to sub for contractual reasons would send their crew chief out with a day's work and that person would not deviate from the 1.,2.,3., order one iota, didn't matter what revisions had occured, what was needed in what order, or even in one case they were still cutting a site to grade, was dodging equipment to stake out plumbing stubouts and building offsets.
Some firms were outstanding because they actually understood construction and had personnel they trusted to do all their own calcs and make decisions on the fly, rather than just sending someone to the site to stake as directed by the field coordinator.
Having worked both Construction and Land Surveying over a period of 45 years, I can categorically state that many, not all, land surveyors are not competent to direct or physically survey on a construction site. There are techniques that do not make the translation either way.
I am not talking about a subdivision or a small commercial site. I am talking about MAJOR, HEAVY construction. AKA, Refinery, Chemical Plant, Railroad Yard, Major Highway interchange(High 5 in Dallas just recently completed). Places where the nominal positional error of all GPS units and majority of the total stations on the market is not acceptable because it is too loose.
:good:
Most of us are. A few of us also spent YEARS as Construction Surveyors. It is a different mindset.
B-)
> Having worked both Construction and Land Surveying over a period of 45 years, I can categorically state that many, not all, land surveyors are not competent to direct or physically survey on a construction site. There are techniques that do not make the translation either way.
>
> I am not talking about a subdivision or a small commercial site. I am talking about MAJOR, HEAVY construction. AKA, Refinery, Chemical Plant, Railroad Yard, Major Highway interchange(High 5 in Dallas just recently completed). Places where the nominal positional error of all GPS units and majority of the total stations on the market is not acceptable because it is too loose.
:good: