TTT - the business of land surveying - race to the bottom

If it doesn't pan out, the rest of us need not worry about it, right?

Seriously, what should the surveyor in dmyhill's example do? He's out of work, he's got good help he wants to keep, and he's got, let's say, some calls from mom and pop types with some work for which they can pay about half of what he usually charges. I'd like to hear ideas about what he should do, not pointless invective.

I have crews doing busy work as we speak. Nobody likes it, but the other choice is to let them go. Being in business is a big-boy game, whiners need not apply.

Frankly, the choices are not good.

A lot of people make the big mistake of trying to "hang in there until the recovery", and they bid jobs at less-than-cost in order to keep workers busy. Well, the workers are busy, but the company is still losing money. In the long run, that path usually leads to everybody losing their jobs anyway, and the owner is in debt at the end.

It is one thing to lose money during a normal "winter slowdown". But if you're in what should be your busy season and you're still doing work at less-than-cost, you're in trouble. If you're in what should be a busy season and you're using your lines of credit to cover operation costs, you already stayed open too long.

One of the nasty realizations people are just now starting to discover is that the industry is changing. It will NEVER go back to the level it was. Technology has changed significantly in the last decade, and people who have stayed up on the new technologies can work much faster, with fewer people, and at higher sustained quality levels than people who have not. So even when the market recovers, we STILL won't need as many people to handle the work. So people who are thinking they can just hang in there for another few months, or another year, or another two years, and everything will return to "normal"... Well, that's delusional.

> I have crews doing busy work as we speak. Nobody likes it, but the other choice is to let them go. Being in business is a big-boy game, whiners need not apply.

So Gene, that $500k client not coming through?
~ pfft ~

Well Sinc, I do think you have hit the nail on the head. I saw this coming first with the first data collector I used, the Wild GRE 3. When I surveyed in the army, we had a recorder to note angles and other information in the field book. Data collectors make this position overkill, and many party chief's started keeping field notes. Then along came GPS. With the new Leica SmartRovers, I have staked out retention ponds, water utilities, and rough corners all by myself. So, as equipment has become smarter and better, faster and more cost effective, the days of three plus survey crews are a thing of the past...

No whining here. I am looking forward to our best year ever, now that the weak and lame have been culled from the field.

The business of land surveying, lets take a look at that.

I think the business is alive and well, but the days of a 2 month backlog are gone for good.

In this day and age everyone expects things to happen quicker. No doubt about it.

If you are still practicing without the benefit of the most modern technology in every aspect of this business, you are dying a slow death.

In my neck of the woods, time frame still has the upper hand on price.

If you are still trying to keep four or five crews busy and those crews have just a total station and a level in the truck, maybe there is one GPS system that is spread around amongst all of them, you are just chasing your tail theses days.

I can get a small job done and delivered to the client before the big box company can even get the field work done, for the same money.

I was told by my attorney and good friend when I started my business, that people will only remember your name if you helped them make or save money. That's about it in a nutshell.

It is what you make it, but the Business of Land Surveying is alive and well, it just has a different feel to it.

Randy

The number of people required to do Surveying has changed dramatically downwards.

My crew is me and my licensed employees; sometimes he is working for me, sometimes I am working for him. I bet we replace at least 10 people required in 1960. They had the 3 or 4 person crew, the grand poobah LS on top of everything, an office tech or two, a couple of draftsman, not to mention the secretary to take phone messages and do the typing.

In 1960 a solo operator could probably handle small lot surveys and topos with a single helper. Now the solo operator can do large boundaries and ALTA surveys all by himself. Large companies will still be needed but they will be doing the big stuff generally with extremely well equipped crews. It's possible now for a large company crew chief and assistant to do everything on the road, maybe just send the product back to the CAD technician in the office for a little polishing up.

The problem now is how do we mentor the next generation? I think a college education is going to become essential but a lot of the graduates also will need to realize most Surveying jobs are going to be field jobs (like Archeology, Environmental Science and other things like that). I understand the traditional apprenticeship approach worked really well (I did it that way) but we are probably the last generation to actually have that work opportunity. This is why I have changed my mind about a college education.

The pie in the sky idea by certain College professors that the college educated LS will be the General in the office in jacket and tie with technicians doing the field work is not sustainable. I think they have the right idea about the degree being required but they need to be educating all around field people because that is where it is going to happen with maybe the exception of the CEO of larger firms.

> The business of land surveying, lets take a look at that.
>
> I think the business is alive and well, but the days of a 2 month backlog are gone for good.
>
> In this day and age everyone expects things to happen quicker. No doubt about it.
>
> If you are still practicing without the benefit of the most modern technology in every aspect of this business, you are dying a slow death.
>
> In my neck of the woods, time frame still has the upper hand on price.
>
> If you are still trying to keep four or five crews busy and those crews have just a total station and a level in the truck, maybe there is one GPS system that is spread around amongst all of them, you are just chasing your tail theses days.
>
> I can get a small job done and delivered to the client before the big box company can even get the field work done, for the same money.
>
> I was told by my attorney and good friend when I started my business, that people will only remember your name if you helped them make or save money. That's about it in a nutshell.
>
> It is what you make it, but the Business of Land Surveying is alive and well, it just has a different feel to it.
>
> Randy

What he said!

If you aren't aware of the changes by now there ain't much point in trying to enlighten you. But that is the mark of a good business man. Know your market, know your client or resign yourself to work for the man that does.

Well said Randy, that's the way it's done.

:good:

"you are just chasing your tail theses days."
well said - in deed

esp if you are paying the client to get the project

or

if a broker bills a client $12K for an ALTA survey
and pays a local surveyor $5K to do it

6th

I know times are tough and frustrating, but if you are getting beat at your game, take some swing lessons and get a little better around the greens.

You lose a little to make a little.

We rarely get rich in this business, but maybe we can make a good living.

We are not the ones in charge anymore and that is a fact, but we can still act like it.

Randy

Cut the crew loose and go solo.

If you keep personnel beyond your ability to sustain the business, there is nothing left to come back to when things turn around.

That is, if you don't have a warchest. Liquidating rainy day capital is fine, that is what it is there for, to keep valuable personnel. Borrowing money to make payroll is the beginning of the death spiral, saw it happen too many times in the past few years.

If the business still exists, hopefully later there will be a demand for their skills and abilities,

Diversification is the answer

What has worked for me is having more than one business venture in the first place. The farming business provides work that always needs done. Having the help involved in both has been a great deal for both management and labor.

Diversify. Try it, you'll like it.

> Seriously, what should the surveyor in dmyhill's example do? He's out of work, he's got good help he wants to keep, and he's got, let's say, some calls from mom and pop types with some work for which they can pay about half of what he usually charges. I'd like to hear ideas about what he should do, not pointless invective.

Its really not rocket science. You have to have the foresight to say "the ship is sinking, and I'm not going to make it with staff intact." If youre spending $$ to stay in business, its time to cut the crew. You'll actually have to work in the field, imagine that. And for God's sake, start your cuts at the high end (PS's, crewchiefs), not with the rodmen as so many firms seem to do. There is a diff between having to fold up shop (if only temporarily), and having to close under bankruptcy. Any laid-off crew members would probably be eligible to collect unemployment anyways, and would likely be available for call-back / fill-in work. But to operate at a loss in attempt to keep staff employed is idiocy.

Diversification is the answer

> Diversify. Try it, you'll like it.

😉

May a broker i'll become

Have a client come to me.
I shop the prices.
Charge the client the highest.
Hire the lowest.
Pocket the difference.

😉

That's a better business model than sending a crew out to do a job that hardly pays their salary

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