Trimble S7 Drifting out of adjustment

Just S7s?

Any other Trimble or Leica or other brands/models to compare.

Identical models and accessories?( Battery drain internal heat, vibration etc)

Same age? Same batteries and swapped?

So many many things to get a hold of to truly test and measure.

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Do you calibrate and collimate everyday or use?

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Check and re-zero after about 20 minutes. After that subsequent BS checks will likely stay stable. The setup needs about that long for tensions in the tripod to stabilize. We are taking about microscopic movements, that is all it takes to throw it off.

If the setup doesn't stay stable it may be because the legs are too loose at their connection to the head, or that the tripod is a poor one, or just worn out.

Also watch for differential heating.?ÿ The sun shining on one side will cause the BS to drift off. Aluminum tripods are terrible for that and thus are rarely used for theodolites. Composite tripods such as the Trimax are almost as bad as aluminum for that. Wood is much better. Check out this White Paper from Leica about tripod performance.?ÿ

Worn or poor quality tribrachs can also cause drift, but you indicated that this was happening to new Trimble instruments, so I'm discounting that possibility in this case. Rest assured that it is very unlikely that there is anything wrong with the instruments themselves.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ

This is not usual - at least it has not been my experience with S series instruments. They are usually rock solid. Once set, the collimation does not vary much at all - even year or year.

And the fact that you are seeing it on more than one instrument really makes me wonder.

There is a thread stared by Firestix re tribrachs https://surveyorconnect.com/community/surveying-geomatics/tribrach-search/ . It is worth a read. Could the source of your problem lie there I wonder? Some of the cheap ones are truly awful...

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If this has just started happening as the heat wave has hit. My first question is what type of legs tripod do you have. And have you adjusted them. Or replaced the rubber grommets up towards the head of the tripod between the plate instrument sits on and where it bolts to legs side. Legs need adjustment as well. Now when you send your instrument in to a dealer for clean and calibration for the certificate. All they are doing is checking to see if it is in specs and clearing the previous calibration and collimation you do as well. Always do the calibration and all collimation routines as soon as you get it back from the dealer. There is something that was written in the first s series manual about so many degrees change in temperature. Then certain parts should be re done as well. I have never ran a s7 so i am no expert. I was very in tuned with the very firs S6 in usa. I run a s6 5ƒ? and a s5 3ƒ? now. The s6 is one of the first couple years and It needs re done about 1 a month now sometimes more. It is just wear and tear. I believe it was a 2008 model. The s5 is newer and less use and she holds adjustments well. Also what prism are you seeing this with and what distance. ?ÿI started seeing up to 45ƒ? on vertical flops from a crew and wondered why. It was always to the multi track and some of the diodes were pushed in.?ÿ

I assume the S7 can compensate for a lot of settlement. ?ÿLike the S6 does. But if you are seeing this. Time to narrow down why.?ÿ

heat shimmer as the sun climbs and such is very possible as well. But in your direct and reverse F1/F2. If the BS and FS are equal donƒ??t sweat it to much. If the differ the. You got a problem.?ÿ

Accounting for Instrument/tripod drift has always been an issue. I routinely find 30" of drift when closing out a long topo setup. My procedure for limiting its effect is locating control first, then monumentation, major improvements,?ÿlesser improvements and ground shots last. If I find some monumentation while topoing, I either rezero or wait until last, add note in data collector and then adjust the raw data to the closing shot?ÿwhen proccesing field data. The ground swells, concrete heats up, asphalt settles, instrument warms, big trucks drive by?ÿand wind blows. I worry more about centering error than drift.?ÿ

@oldpacer With the Trimble gear if he has a back sight set up he can be anywhere and run the check bs turn to routine. Store and reorient or store as a check. I swear it had to be one of my early party chiefs that when i would see him reach into his shirt oocket to grab a non filtered palm all cigarette. I best be hollaring. Checking Zeroes. And then how much I was off and then zero reset. Good to go. Lol. Or he would just sit there puffing away until i walked down to him and he would whisper. Did you check zeroes. Lol. Of course we didnƒ??t always have a back sight set up. But I would either find a natural or he would stack a barber pole for me. Those old set 3B II sokkias drifted a lot. Especially on asphalt in July - August. ?ÿWhen I first started running a robot the old geodometer. I would keep a pocket full of goof teas. And when doing topo I would set one every so often and right the angle and number down. So I could check it every now and then. Use to do that with rtk as well. Because back then no on the fly initialization. So after fixing on a known point golf tee went in where i was doing topo and that way i walked a little less.?ÿ

@oldpacer With the Trimble gear if he has a back sight set up he can be anywhere and run the check bs turn to routine. Store and reorient or store as a check. I swear it had to be one of my early party chiefs that when i would see him reach into his shirt oocket to grab a non filtered palm all cigarette. I best be hollaring. Checking Zeroes. And then how much I was off and then zero reset. Good to go. Lol. Or he would just sit there puffing away until i walked down to him and he would whisper. Did you check zeroes. Lol. Of course we didnƒ??t always have a back sight set up. But I would either find a natural or he would stack a barber pole for me. Those old set 3B II sokkias drifted a lot. Especially on asphalt in July - August. ?ÿWhen I first started running a robot the old geodometer. I would keep a pocket full of goof teas. And when doing topo I would set one every so often and right the angle and number down. So I could check it every now and then. Use to do that with rtk as well. Because back then no on the fly initialization. So after fixing on a known point golf tee went in where i was doing topo and that way i walked a little less.?ÿ

Sorry I probably did a poor job of explaining the issue. Itƒ??s not drifting out of level while setup.

The f1/f2 angles are drifting away from each other as times goes on throughout the day during subsequent setups while level. My old RTS doesnƒ??t do this at all, itƒ??s been fantastic compared to these new guns.

The vertical especially, which is kind of weird because I can be pretty far out of level and the compensator will keep my verticals pretty tight.

@bc-surveyor Is it to a single prism or multi track 360 prism. ?ÿI see error increase with multi track 360 as day goers on. ?ÿBattery. Also shorter distances the vertical can get very squirrelly larger splits in the f1/f2 values. Also the multi track has options to go between passive and active mode and semi active. I read somewhere recently about a bug fix in Trimble Access that addresses an issue when using that setting. ?ÿI donƒ??t remember which version or patch the issue was in. But maybe see if it could be software related since you have had the S7 sent in for cleaning and calibration ?ÿ Could be software glitch or something. ?ÿThe sun angle and direction of sighting could also play a role ?ÿas you had stated it gets worse as the day goes on ?ÿ.?ÿ

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Since you didnƒ??t specify: are these later F1/F2 observations to a hand held rod. Braced rod. Tripod target? If a rod is it closer to the total station?

are heat waves to blame as the day heats up?

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@olemanriver?ÿ

The one glitch I had was that using "check backsight" function would cause the mt1000 prism profile to switch from semi active to passive. But that shouldn't cause the issue. Switching to active only could though.?ÿ

@350rocketmike I agree. ?ÿMultitrack is not an issue as long as you pay attention to the settings when wanting more precise shots. Also one of my multitracks has a bunch of the led pushed in from who knows what. The one i use for property corners or setting some ?ÿtemp control points i have marked it so i know the one led thats pushed in is facing away from the gun on those shots. ?ÿI prefer having a target set up for my backsight like traverse kit one. Makes it so much easier on staking jobs or topos where i am setting in one spot for a while to use the ck bs routine periodically to re set 0 and such. Plus never fails on staking when contractor needs to discuss something and 30 minutes later you are back staking again. Is the routine the same for doing all the collimation calibration auto focus etc the same on s7 as the older s6. I wish I could remember but i do remember something about so many degrees in temperature change needing to re run a couple of the routines. I will have to look in my old s6 trainer manual. ?ÿIts like 2008 or something. ?ÿIt had notes about some things. ?ÿThe regular manuals that went to customers had topics spread out. Probably same reason they donƒ??t out every thing needed in how to put a baby bed together. They donƒ??t want the liability. Lol. Technical writing. ?ÿIt is amazing the time spent making sure its not to easy to follow for their protection. ?ÿ

@olemanriver?ÿ

I would set up backsight on a tribrach/tripod all the time when I was using the Leica and planning to be set up for a while, or on longer distance backsights. The check backsight function on microsurvey fieldgenius was basically 100% reliable and only took 3 clicks. Trimble Access it's not as reliable and it's more steps to do it, have to turn off tracking and the turn to function does not always work reliably if you're not elevated on both points with correct HI and HT in the setup....the Leica/fieldgenius just turns back to the exact horizontal and vertical angle of the backsight location and immediately gets target lock every single time if there is line of sight. Trimble just fails to find the prism sometimes because it doesn't point the vertical at the right angle.?ÿ

So I find myself setting up a backsight less often since I will likely have to walk back to the robot anyway, so might as well just walk to the backsight with the bipod/pole and check it.?ÿ

As far as the bug where it would switch to passive mode, I would notice it when it would lock onto a window or something instead of my prism and I would be out several meters. But I wonder if it's possible someones settings are being changed to Active. Then it would have extra slop in the shots.

@350rocketmike yes dont know for sure. But if you are using 2d points in Trimble access you can designate what that value is so it is ignored. Auto cad likes the -9999999 thing. Some people set it to 00. I have not had any issues really with topo ck shots nor bs ck shots. ?ÿI did run field genius a couple months ago for a half day. Not hard to figure it out was just testing it with a guy. I used magnet as well i loved the value text size. I didnƒ??t have to have my cheater glasses on. That was nice . But the topcon robot did not impress me though. ?ÿI could get use to it but i like the Trimble when things get in my way and it burns and tracks me in the thickets. ?ÿI have used a Leica some helping another company that was in a pickle. It was run with carlson. I loved the laser in the woods. ?ÿMade cutting line easy. But I didnƒ??t care for the power search. I like the gps search and joystick better. As long as i get her set right. Or she will turn to jones house lol. I am just getting use to all the new access functions . If i could find a way to increase the text size i would be golden. My tsc3 has all but gone. I have a rental coming tomorrow but donƒ??t know what it will be yet. I have a 25 acre boundary topo design to do its 4 separate parcels coming together for one. I am hoping to get all the control and property corners done tomorrow with gps except a few spots where its thick. Then start mapping.?ÿ

Posted by: @350rocketmike

Trimble Access it's not as reliable and it's more steps to do it, have to turn off tracking and the turn to function does not always work reliably if you're not elevated on both points with correct HI and HT in the setup....the Leica/fieldgenius just turns back to the exact horizontal and vertical angle of the backsight location and immediately gets target lock every single time if there is line of sight. Trimble just fails to find the prism sometimes because it doesn't point the vertical at the right angle.?ÿ

Posted by: @olemanriver

But if you are using 2d points in Trimble access you can designate what that value is so it is ignored.

Access does allow the operator to enter a null height for the instrument during setup.

I always carry elevations, and haven't run it that way in years, but I don't recall a problem with the Turn To function during those setups.