Yes I believe you're right. I'll have to do more experimenting the day after tomorrow (tomorrow I'm helping another party chief and using his equipment). I'll have to double check if it's only happening in integrated mode and if it's only happening with staked and stored points or any point.?ÿ
Yeah that's what I typically do. Even so I'm pretty sure I've never had an issue in the past shooting check points to observed control points either. It's only began happening recently. I feel like it's only happening in integrated mode which I've only started using regularly the last little while. And I was usually shooting a separate point for my gnss check shots for the most part so I didn't run into it right away.?ÿ
@350rocketmike I have seen this a time or two. When observing the same point. I use the same point # name. ?ÿI never completely finished trying to find out but I always store another except if I am done with all my control and it is adjusted and finalized. Then I will store as a check. But if you are performing a check shot then just like when you are in robot only mode and do the BS check routine you can do a check TOPO and place that point name/# in the field. The good thing about checking this way is if for some reason you need another observation you can change an observation to a enable as a check or the other way in the TBC office software. Now in integrated surveying and I have not done this since the survey controller days. ?ÿBut check your survey styles in both like mentioned above for duplicate point tolerances. Also I remember reading somewhere that in a more recent Trimble access manual or help guide something about being able to measure a point with both rtk and robot at same time or using vertical only for one and hz on other. If I didn??t dream this and i read this looking for something else it might be that since you are in integrated mode it has a setting somewhere making this happen. So it might be doing what it is supposed to do in that function. ?ÿWhen I have seen it not give me an option doing rtk only I would just re observe and then it would prompt me. Now I seen this a couple times and never had a chance to really check it out to see why. ?ÿWhat i did find was if and when I type the point name/# in and it doesn??t give me the first warning which is this point already exists message I would simply re type it hit enter before measuring and then it would prompt with it already exist and give me the option to overwrite store another store as a check etc. i have seen it with robot only and rtk only. So it could be a bug or it could have been an old man not paying attention as well. When i saw this it was with a tsc3 running 2014 access. And i could barely see the screeso i never got real alarmed.?ÿ
You are pretty smart and have grit and really look for the answers. Find out if yall have a network license for tbc or what. If a network license check one out on your laptop or whatever. And start playing around in it for fun. Just send your job file to the office as usual and keep a copy for yourself. Drag and drop the job file in. Look at optical spreadsheet look at the mean angles results. Look at vector spreadsheet. You don??t need to worry about messing something up break it your data is in office hands you can play around and see what TBC shows and look at your data in access side byside. Run a check shot report on both. Run a survey job report. If you can you will start preparing yourself for the next level. If office doesn??t have time or will to train you. Train yourself. And use the resources here as well.?ÿ
in my opinion and thats all it is. ?ÿYou are ripe for a year or atleast some time in the office. Not necessarily in a production mode but some basic qa/qc and such. That will open your eyes to a lot and give you a better understanding of how and what and why you do what you do in the field. It is hard these days because of more work than people. I brought a chief in early today. For this same reason. Two hours just placing field notes in server and downloads. He said oh wow I never knew what it was doing on your end. Now when i ask him for something he understands i am not senile its I can??t read his mind. Good luck man. You keep pounding away you will figure it out.?ÿ
Out of curiosity (THRAC alert)...
How do your projects get handled in UTM? Are you using Advanced Geodetic options to conventional setups in Access? Or applying a combined scale factor?
Obviously it varies with location....around my neck of the woods, SPCS is about ~50ppm versus 370ppm for UTM 10 north. We're not much above sea level so elevation factor is minimized, but the difference is still about 0.3' per mile versus 2 feet per mile, and in UTM a 300ft conventional backsight using a straight UTM projection will disagree with GNSS for over a tenth horizontally.
(edit: should have said "can" disagree, not "will"....obviously depends on azimuth/direction.)
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Don't have time to read your message entirely yet, but what I circled might be the work around. I already have found when I go to shoot the GPS check in staking I back up and it shows I'm about to stake the same point but if I don't type it over it will jump to the next (if point increment is 1) even though it's showing its ready to stake the right point.?ÿ
Also I noticed before it occasionally wouldn't give me that first warning you are talking about but it would still come up with the warning upon storing and show me the deltas.
Using Trimble is about constantly coming up with workarounds for all the glitches. Well any survey software really I'm guessing. Not like we have a ton of choices.?ÿ
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I did suggest to my PM that we could all use some training in TBC, including me just to know their side of what is happening, and he agreed. The issue is time. We're still booked up for a month plus as far as I know. It was several months back in the summer.?ÿ
@rover83?ÿ
I'm given a combined scale factor which I can use if running TS only, but it fits almost perfect with just selecting our UTM zone, nad 83 and the local geoid. Some jobs are site calibrated instead and some older jobs are scale 1:1, which means I can't use my vrs rover (I don't have a base).?ÿ
This is an area I need to spend more time researching just to have a better understanding.?ÿ
@350rocketmike it is so hard to find time for sure. I believe we are all in the same boat. I have been trying to finish some training for safety since 530 am this morning. But instead i have been computing data. And reviewing a rtk survey for drone control that someone else did. And it should have been 15 minutes. But first issue. The claim one datum nad83 but input itrf position next no geoid file used so ellipsoid and elevation are identical. Not a big deal easy to fix. But they put in and held a orthometric height in ellipsoid height field I assume. ?ÿSo even that is off. Somehow when u find one mistake more start popping up . So i find bad base station antenna heights and rover antenna heights changed every time the took a shot. Same numerical value on most but different point of measure up to. I don??t even know who did the work it was not us. My boss just asked me to review it and see if i could verify if any issues would arise . My list kept growing and he just said ok you can stop i will get the answers for you from the client.?ÿ
the other is I keep being told to just let a least squares adjustment fix everything. ?ÿGood grief. Least squares doesn??t fix bad data BLUNDERS. Why can??t people get that through their brain housing group. I want to find the person that started all that talk. It is a awesome method. It gives us the ability to find poor data or blunders we might have missed indicators. It allows us to easily get the best fit of our bounder free data observation with confidence. But it doesn??t flat out eliminate bad data. Sorry for my rant lol. Hope all the ideas here help you figure out your issue. Now back to computing for me lol maybe just maybe i will have time to finish my training lol.?ÿ
yeah, training with a real surveyor that's used it too.?ÿ I was all stoked to get weeks of training with Trimble and with MicroStation and now I'm using the Leica stuff, it's been a real challenge for me.?ÿ almost as difficult as the FS studying.....silly lawyers make this happen to us.... Intellectuall property aside, it shouldn't be that hard to do, yet it is.....
THRAC OVER?ÿ
Sounds like someone was drinking on the job to make that many mistakes. I know I make mistakes, but most I catch before they get anywhere.?ÿ
Just finished up some as builts with another party chief and his tsc7 is also auto averaging without prompting. Had a reflectorless shop miss the corner and tried it overwrite it and it just averaged the second shot.?ÿ
One thing I learned is with multiple observations it's quicker to delete from the map screen directly than going to point manager and deleting individual observations.?ÿ
it is so hard to find time for sure. I believe we are all in the same boat. I have been trying to finish some training for safety since 530 am this morning. But instead i have been computing data. And reviewing a rtk survey for drone control that someone else did. And it should have been 15 minutes. But first issue. The claim one datum nad83 but input itrf position next no geoid file used so ellipsoid and elevation are identical. Not a big deal easy to fix. But they put in and held a orthometric height in ellipsoid height field I assume. ?ÿSo even that is off. Somehow when u find one mistake more start popping up . So i find bad base station antenna heights and rover antenna heights changed every time the took a shot. Same numerical value on most but different point of measure up to. I don??t even know who did the work it was not us. My boss just asked me to review it and see if i could verify if any issues would arise . My list kept growing and he just said ok you can stop i will get the answers for you from the client.?ÿ
Wonder if the control folks were surveyors. A not-insignificant chunk of us still sees themselves as data collectors and regurgitators. Punch it into the magic machine, pull the lever and export the result. What's ellipsoid height? I don't care, that stuff is for nerds. Something something follow the footsteps, hold the monument, blah blah blah...
The successful surveyor of the future will be able to get down and dirty with the hardware and software,?ÿ as well as understand the transformations and equations that make it tick. The big-ticket clients of the future aren't going to want PNEZD CSV as a deliverable.
the other is I keep being told to just let a least squares adjustment fix everything.?ÿ
WTF. This is why we either need more rigorous licensing exams or four-year degree requirements. I'm pretty sure I heard "LSA doesn't fix bad data!" at least once a week throughout the required 4 semesters of statistics and spatial data adjustments.
If someone doesn't understand what LSA is for and what it does, they shouldn't be using it or directing folks on how to use it.
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"LSA doesn't fix bad data!"
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I want this as a T-shirt, trucker hat, and a coffee mug.?ÿ Hell bumper stickers for the win!
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If someone doesn't understand what LSA is for and what it does, they shouldn't be using it or directing folks on how to use it.
OR... hear me out: just export a .csv from your data collector and import it directly into CAD. No adjustments = no worries
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EDIT for all of those that don't know me: the above statement is complete sarcasm. PLEASE collect enough data to be able to analyze/adjust your work.
@rover83 I am so with you. I am not a big pusher of a 4 year degree but i will have to say the 144 hours of bs and ms level courses even the tech school courses did not hinder me in learning. But i do have a big belief in higher education. I just believe it can be obtained many ways. I honestly believe we went through some phase or trend that has multiple aspects. One we pushed and mentored the drafters to get licensed and left our field people as mules. And i can count many ls folks that i worked with or know personally that never surveyed in the field over 40 hours in their whole career. Now they are not dumb some have degrees. They if i asked would probably sit down and train me in cad tomorrow. Many over the years have reached out to me when they got themselves in a jam especially with gps. I am not licensed. But they respect me enough to ask for help. Along with that we also become so busy and equipment so easy to get an answer (not always correct answer) that we never taught them what it was doing in the data collector. And we created button pushers. I literally had to add a distance to one point today to raise an elevation for a field guy. Not because he didn??t know how because of our work flow required that have been passed down. He is doing what he was told. That??s not what i want to do. That??s my biggest frustration coming back to private sector. Is that the first reaction is to call office. Before our last resort was call the office. Times change. I have dug out one of the old Trimble gos basics book for rtk. Like 1990??s book. A little science a little math and basic explanation of how rtk works. I have it ready for one of my new crew chiefs. He is a bright young man smart great attitude. Listens. He has just used rtk and never told or taught what is going on. If the dc sais its good it is. I started discussing rtk with him and figured out he had never heard terms like common satellite at base and rover. Why I wanted 180 epochs on certain points. Interger ambiguity etc etc. he will be way smarter than i am or i will ever be. I will teach him everything i know. He will probably outperform me in know time. I love it though.Always make people better than you are is how we make things better.
As far as LSA fixing bad data. I have heard that more in the last couple years than ever before in my life. I don??t know where it comes from.
I will say the company i am with now does a lot of mentoring and teaching compared to where i left. That is awesome to see. Good mentoring at headquarters level. Really trying to have the most skilled and educated field folks. I have not heard one complaint about my time sheet on overhead of an hour here an hour there stating teaching john doe about this or that. We are just so busy keeping up I can??t implement a training program. I would like to once a month take a half a day and have a small class. Incorporate what the data collector is doing with how to long hand and the theory behind it. It will probably never happen. But i am getting to take one of my young chiefs out me and him to set up a job for a boundary and really try and show him evidence beyond just a monument rebar. ?ÿI did the survey next to it and several natural monuments were called out on a line. Blazed tree. Stream crossing and along a creek bed. All in deed or plat. The monuments are in but the distance do not match exactly but it was done with transit and chain. All evidence that needs to be observed. So a LS has eyes on it so to speak. Steep terrain also probably why distance are not that good. But not that bad either. I begged to go out and just help point them out. He is smart but he has mostly been in city type work so i am hoping to help him up his game a bit. When I started i had LS doing this. Coming out and if for only a moment walking the lines and pointing out things and explaining why. Now i just wish I could remember all those old crusty surveyors taught me. Lol. Some of it comes back and some gets all jumbled up in my head.?ÿ
the company i mentioned above is not our company its a different one and they need assistance lol.?ÿ
@rover83?ÿ
I'm given a combined scale factor which I can use if running TS only, but it fits almost perfect with just selecting our UTM zone, nad 83 and the local geoid. Some jobs are site calibrated instead and some older jobs are scale 1:1, which means I can't use my vrs rover (I don't have a base).?ÿ
This is an area I need to spend more time researching just to have a better understanding.?ÿ
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Assumption: I am presuming that you are pinning residential houses.
Question: Is your firm scaling down all the houses so that they fit your sub all on grid??ÿ
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I ask because this has been common in my experience for larger projects (ie. highways, railways, etc.), but the majority of the work I have done for residential dwellings has all been in ground.?ÿ Typically, it is per M-plan with a grid factor chosen, roughly, in the middle of the sub.?ÿ Or do you have enough adjacent subs that it is worthwhile to do everything in grid??ÿ Just curious as to the reasoning as to why to do everything in grid for residential pinning.?ÿ For the record, I am not saying one way is right or wrong--just curious to the mindset.?ÿ I have not worked for a firm in Canada that uses LDP's so I will not address that.?ÿ
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Or are your concrete crews/framers good with "good enough" (ie. ground dimensioned building is placed within a grid distance lot)??ÿ Most of the municipalities down here (SW ON) would not be able to wrap their mind around the idea of a lot grading plan done with grid distances IMO.?ÿ Again, just interested in the background info that brought that decision to the forefront.
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