This is just a note about something that I always find a bit surprising, i.e. how durable something as seemingly ephemeral as a fence post hole is. The morning's work began with looking for some evidence of a fence line that in 1938 was described as "remains of fence". From the road, there was very little in view. No fence posts standing, no berm indicating where a fence might have been, no nothing.
The 1938 surveyor had given a tie, though, from a pipe he set 867 varas (about 2408 ft.) South of where the line of the "remains of fence" had intersected the line he ran Southerly along a road. We found his pipe and so I calculated up the theoretical position where he found the fence remnants in 1938.
We set out three 1/2" PVC irrigation pipe laths along the calculated position of the line and started in with the probe, working up and down the line staked out, looking for fence post holes at 9 ft. intervals. The 1938 surveyor was fairly good, so I was expecting to find the fence, if it could be found, within about a foot or so of the theoretical line.
In that stiff clay soil, the probe needed effort to advance it, but in one spot I could run it practically down to the handle without really leaning on it. That is what old post holes feel like. The other old post and wire fences on that tract were built with a 9 ft. spacing on the posts, so we then shifted over 9 ft. from the soft spot, on a line parallel with the theoretical line and, lo and behold, there was another soft spot. In about half an hour, we'd located about 154 ft. of old post holes, all the way to the location of what was most likely the corner post at the road, which was what I was after.
So, "remains of fence" in 1938 persist in 2010 as a marked difference in soil where the old fence post holes have filled in with looser material than the surrounding clay.
Given the fact you're on the ground doing the survey I would not suspect that you have doubt. However, this might be argued from an opposing side without more evidence. By chance were you able to find old field notes? I had one similiar on the Eastern Shore of Virginia. I was able to find the field notes from a 1920 survey. I used the Schonstadt to locate about 75'± of wire fence buried in the ground after several of deposits from mother nature, determined this to be the best place to start. There were pine trees called for and I was able to find the lighter. this helped but any indications of fence post were out of the question. I could only calculate where the posts may be but was unable to locate any remains.
Sounds like your situation is a bit different with regards to soil type et al. Are the clay soils prevalent in that area?
(yes...I know what your post was about but....I'm always curious about other stuff)
BTW...I would also like to congratulate you on your photo. I seems your pic appears to be of enough interest that another has captured for his own use in identity. I suspect if you Snoop around enough you can also find....flattery....don't ya love it!)
> Given the fact you're on the ground doing the survey I would not suspect that you have doubt. However, this might be argued from an opposing side without more evidence.
Over the years, I've found enough fence post holes in soil conditions ranging from rocky (the easiest, of course) to clay. I'd testify from that experience.
>By chance were you able to find old field notes?
Yes, I have copies of the 1938 surveyor's records that I obtained from his grandson who is also a local surveyor, and a highly reputable one, at that.
> Sounds like your situation is a bit different with regards to soil type et al. Are the clay soils prevalent in that area?
The area where I work in Central Texas is mostly in the hill country where the soils tend to be shallow and the limestone plentiful. East of there, however, the land was all once in prairie and the soils there are mostly deep clay.
Kent great work. That is definitely something to consider on some of those tough boundaries.
>That is definitely something to consider on some of those tough boundaries.
Yes, the essential tool, at least for stiff soils, is a fairly sturdy probe. I'd recommend having one made so that the handle is about belly button height on the user. It's comfortable to put weight on the probe at about that height.
I meant to take a photo of mine today, but imagine a 42" length of smooth 1/2 in. steel rod with a tee handle welded to it and braced to the probe for a strong connection and you get the idea.
Interesting. I had never really thought about using 1/2" PVC pipe as lathes. Are they sturdy enough to drive in clay? They would be lighter than wood. By the way, I have scraped across an area looking for a post hole. Amazing how they last.
One thing I forgot to ask. What length do you use?
PVC lath
> One thing I forgot to ask. What length do you use?
I buy 1/2 PVC irrigation pipe, which is much cheaper than Schedule 40 pipe and is easy to cut with a hand shear sold for the purpose. We cut them into 48" lengths, but when we need shorter ones, it's quick and easy to cut them into two 24" or four 12" lengths.
You can drive them into the same soil that you can drive a wood lath into. In some cases, it helps to make a pilot hole. I use the probe rod and wallow it out a bit. You can even set the PVC pipes in rock if you have a gas drill with a 3/4 in. bit to make the pilot hole. Otherwise, drill a 3/8 in. hole, set a 3/8" x 8" spike and drive the pipe over it. They will remain standing for years and are easy to see even after the flagging fades.
I drew the maps for an Archeological survey of a pre-columbian village in St. Thomas USVI. There were lots of circles of post holes. I never saw the site as by the time I was involved it had been turned into a shopping mall. I think the post holes were just stains or discolored earth that were located as it was being excavated.
Up in my neck of the woods Mr. McMillan, (Collin, Grayson, Fannin and Hunt Counties, TX) it's common to find Bois D'arc post's well over a hundred years old. The area is referred to as black land prairie and the soil type is carbonacious clay, which is generally Ph neutral. Cedar and Oak post's seem to go relatively fast though.
PVC lath
> > One thing I forgot to ask. What length do you use?
>
> I buy 1/2 PVC irrigation pipe, which is much cheaper than Schedule 40 pipe and is easy to cut with a hand shear sold for the purpose. We cut them into 48" lengths, but when we need shorter ones, it's quick and easy to cut them into two 24" or four 12" lengths.
>
> You can drive them into the same soil that you can drive a wood lath into. In some cases, it helps to make a pilot hole. I use the probe rod and wallow it out a bit. You can even set the PVC pipes in rock if you have a gas drill with a 3/4 in. bit to make the pilot hole. Otherwise, drill a 3/8 in. hole, set a 3/8" x 8" spike and drive the pipe over it. They will remain standing for years and are easy to see even after the flagging fades.
Kent,
I had forgotten you said irrigation pipe, I'm not even sure we have that around here. Would a Home Depot or Lowe's (Or some other kind of specialized store)carry that type? I think mine is Sch40 (it says "drinking water" on the side). I got 10 pieces 10' long the other day at Home Depot and paid $1.52 each ($15.20). I'll probably do my cuts as 4'/4'/2' or 3.333'/3, or some of both. I just know that it is going to be less costly (I don't like to say cheaper if the end result is actually better) than the current poplar stakes I am getting. The poplar are great lath, but I have to order in such quantities that it becomes quite costly quickly. I am also all about setting something so that land owners and other surveyors can find the monument quickly and easily for years to come. Occasionally lately I have also set a few of the green "vegetable garden" fence posts (I don't know what else to call them) as witnesses. They are about $2~$2.50 each, but it makes a nice witness and you don't have to worry about the client setting another iron that might confuse the situation at a later time.
Thanks for the ideas!!
I can't imagine when in Texas a fence is NEVER any sort of evidence that a post hole would be even considered, especially when a fence when standing can never have anything to do with a boundary. Why even waste the time poking around? Your measuring instruments broken of something?
LRDay
With any project the one who does the work knows best when to say the due diligence is met. Kent was sharing this like he does some of his projects and...as usual..very interesting. Kent seems to be a very prudent surveyor with some very interesting projects.
PVC lath
> I had forgotten you said irrigation pipe, I'm not even sure we have that around here. Would a Home Depot or Lowe's (Or some other kind of specialized store)carry that type?
I don't think I've seen it at the Lowe's or Home Depot where I shop. I buy it from a supply company that specializes in selling the materials for landscape sprinkler systems.
The pipe has the following designation printed on it:
1/2"IPS PVC 1120 315PSI@73°F 2/ISF NSF-pw ASTM D2241 JM90 BR N
Why Look for Old Fence Remains?
> With any project the one who does the work knows best when to say the due diligence is met.
Well, more to the point, while in Utah any fence is apparently an "established boundary", in Texas the greatest importance of old fences is when they lead one to evidence of the original survey that actually created the boundary.
The evidence suggests that the "remains of fence" that the 1938 surveyor described were probably those of a fence built soon after 1892 when the record of a resurvey reported various stones in place, describing them as original corners. Considering the relatively brief lapse of time between the original survey in 1877 and 1892, and various other evidence, the 1892 resurvey is holding up as fairly good evidence of where the 1877 surveyor made certain corners.
> I can't imagine when in Texas a fence is NEVER any sort of evidence that a post hole would be even considered, especially when a fence when standing can never have anything to do with a boundary. Why even waste the time poking around? Your measuring instruments broken of something?
I don't even think that Kent was using the fence as a boundary. I think he was using the fence post holes to find the end of the fence so that he could place the field notes he had upon the ground. But, I too found it very interesting. I also learn things along the way... I have learned that posts in Texas were/are placed at 9' intervals, while I believe in VA they are usually placed at 8' intervals... but I'm going to have to check on that though.
> Up in my neck of the woods Mr. McMillan, (Collin, Grayson, Fannin and Hunt Counties, TX) it's common to find Bois D'arc post's well over a hundred years old.
Yes, in Central Texas the cedar (Juniperus ashei a/k/a Mountain Cedar, Texas Cedar, etc.) posts last forever. The oldest cedar posts I've seen dated from the middle 1840's and were decayed, but still recognizable.
In this case, the posts had been apparently pulled out of the ground. Otherwise, there would have been stubs of the posts left in place, still in good shape.
PVC lath
> > I had forgotten you said irrigation pipe, I'm not even sure we have that around here. Would a Home Depot or Lowe's (Or some other kind of specialized store)carry that type?
>
> I don't think I've seen it at the Lowe's or Home Depot where I shop. I buy it from a supply company that specializes in selling the materials for landscape sprinkler systems.
>
> The pipe has the following designation printed on it:
>
> 1/2"IPS PVC 1120 315PSI@73°F 2/ISF NSF-pw ASTM D2241 JM90 BR N
Leave it to you to go and use some specialized piece of material that hardly anybody else can get their hands on...
😉
thanks for the info!!
PVC lath
> Leave it to you to go and use some specialized piece of material that hardly anybody else can get their hands on...
It shouldn't be that hard to find. The reason I buy the thin-wall 1/2" is that it's cheaper and easier to cut than Schedule 40 and will actually fit over the head of a 3/8" spike for installation in rocky soils.
PVC lath
> It shouldn't be that hard to find. The reason I buy the thin-wall 1/2" is that it's cheaper and easier to cut than Schedule 40 and will actually fit over the head of a 3/8" spike for installation in rocky soils.
I think I know what you mean now, but I think I'll prefer the heavier wall pipe for driving. We just don't have the same need for irrigation systems here in VA and thus don't have the same supply houses.
I have set some 1" PVC pipe as witnesses on some hills and ridges around here with Dad. We took some 8'/10' pieces and cut them at 4'/5' on a pretty good angle for even more ease in driving. I'm not really doing those now, but I still think that these sections that I am going to use will stand out and be unique in my area.
