Seems like everything I touch lately requires one of these as the problems are so many that notes on the plat and the field notes are, in my opinion, not adequate enough to address the problems found with the survey and possible remedies to said problems.
Invariably, it's some goofy as possible adverse possession claim that could be made.
The current one, is a 10 acre conflict whereby my clients have been using 10 acres of the tract to the North's land for oh, say 75 years. Mix in some boundary line agreements that only show up in field notes and not the typical "boundary line agreement" that we're used to from say 1961 to a local surveyor evidently growing a GOD complex and surveying the fence and you have yourselves the makings of some damn fine East Texas Surveying complete with statements like "That fence is the line" and "It's always been that way".
Oh for a simple lot and block. 🙂
> Seems like everything I touch lately requires one of these as the problems are so many that notes on the plat and the field notes are, in my opinion, not adequate enough to address the problems found with the survey and possible remedies to said problems.
>
> Invariably, it's some goofy as possible adverse possession claim that could be made.
>
> The current one, is a 10 acre conflict whereby my clients have been using 10 acres of the tract to the North's land for oh, say 75 years. Mix in some boundary line agreements that only show up in field notes and not the typical "boundary line agreement" that we're used to from say 1961 to a local surveyor evidently growing a GOD complex and surveying the fence and you have yourselves the makings of some damn fine East Texas Surveying complete with statements like "That fence is the line" and "It's always been that way".
>
> Oh for a simple lot and block. 🙂
Kris,
Do you think a certain Wisconsin surveyor may have snuck down here to try and "straighten things out"? Sounds plausible based on the facts you have given.;-)
> Do you think a certain Wisconsin surveyor may have snuck down here to try and "straighten things out"? Sounds plausible based on the facts you have given.;-)
Now you have done gone and done it!:-D
> Kris,
>
> Do you think a certain Wisconsin surveyor may have snuck down here to try and "straighten things out"? Sounds plausible based on the facts you have given.;-)
Glenn,
Sounds good to me.;-)
Kris,
I am personally glad I haven't had to do a detailed surveyor's report in many years. I think the last one was in the 80's or 90's.
Just keep in mind the whole world will be better off if you can help resolve the boundary conflict instead of sending neighbors into a court battle for years to come.
I know a few surveyors who try to bury problems.
A report would not help them.
The plats, of the first surveyor that I worked for, always
showed what he found and how he broke down the sections into
aliquot parts.
Robert
The typical function of my surveyor's reports are to define the scope of the project, what I found, what does work, what doesn't work, where the problem originated (hopefully) and possible remedies to each of the problems. That's about all I know to do.
In this case, I'm using the fences and corners that I found on the ground that are in conflict. I didn't do this lightly, but I feel that it is where a court would place these lines. I've outlined the length of time that these objects and fences have been in place as provable through the public record. I've also used fences that protruded into my land at my clients request as he didn't want to stir a pot with the neighbors. This "fixes" some of the conflicts, but doesn't clear up the conflicts. It will in effect, bury them to some degree once my descriptions go of record, but my final recommendation to my clients via the surveyors report is to have legal counsel review my findings and have him contact me so that we can work on possible remedies.
The rub on this one is that one of the tracts that constitutes a 10.25 acre conflict is now not in private hands, but in Timber Company hands, which will make it difficult for "peaceable" fixing of the problems as their attorneys get involved. The interesting thing about that line is that the timber company (I feel) knew that their land extended into my clients area of occupation but instead painted and marked the fence line as the extents of their bounds. While painted lines don't adverse possession make, in this instance, I feel that it is their acquiescence to the occupation line that is monumented as opposed to generating a conflict.
We will see as it goes forward but I do not feel their will be any legal action over this. Hopefully they will file affidavits based on my survey and report that will outline their occupation of the 10.25 acres in question and begin that process should legal action occur on the part of the timber company.
At any rate, I've showed all the conflicts, found all the problems, and advised my client accordingly via writing and surveyed the tracts applying a myriad of different "unwritten doctrines" and backing them all up, with what would appear to be, "apples to apples" case law.
But ya never know. 🙂
Glenn
Nah, but I'm pretty sure what was rattling around in this cat's head at the time was pretty close. The funny thing is, this guy was generally spot on when it came to putting stuff back together correctly. It's like finding gold when I see his descriptions as an adjoiner. In this case, there may be more to it, but I haven't found the file from him yet to see if there is "more to the story".
Robert
I was not referring to anything you are doing but more generally to those surveyors who without much thought place a new rod 3 feet inside a fence and then when asked what to do they say "Get a Lawyer". At this point the surveyor is somewhat done with the job but the legal battle and hard feelings between neighbors can last a lifetime. The sad part is the surveyor may have placed the rod in error and could be ruled against in court.
I recall several years ago I got a call from a lady who was obviously distraught because her neighbor had a survey done and had torn down the old fence and was building a new one on her land. It took me about 2 weeks to work this job in and when I went to the door to speak with the lady her daughter answered and said her mother died of a heart attack a couple of weeks earlier.
If the surveyor who had placed the rod 3 feet inside the fence had taken the most basic courtesy and told the lady why he was placing the rod and shown her some type of proof I think it could have gone a lot differently.
Do you have trouble understanding section 16 of the Texas Civil Procedures & Remedies Act? Ignorance of the law is no excuse and lawyers do not know when the provisions of that act apply because they aare not qualified to recover and analyze physical evidence that marks the legal boundaries of a parcel of land per the provisions of Sec. 16.
Go to www.recenter.TAMU.edu and search the Tierra Grande archives for the article "Use It or Lose It" by Atty Judon Famborough.
You might also want to review the text of Curtis Brown's, (the author of Boundary Control etc), talk about the surveyor's liability to unwritten rights; here is a quote from it:
In my early writings, I generally advocated that surveyors should locate land boundaries in accordance with a written deed; all conveyances based upon unwritten rights should be referred to attorneys for resolution. Within recent years there have been cases, and one in particular, wherein surveyors have been held liable for failure to react to a change in ownership created by prolonged possession. The purpose of this paper is to re-examine what a surveyor should do in the event title has been altered by a legal transfer of title by prolonged possession.
Richard Schaut
Richard
I have no problem with reading comprehension. However, it should be noted that I am not an attorney, nor did I play one on TV or stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. To that end, and according to every attorney and district judge I've spoke to about this subject, making the decision without regard to the others can remove their rights. This is a violation of the 14th amendment if I remember my civics correctly. While I can take testimony of parties on the ground, and I can do what the landowners want, I cannot act as a judge and say that Chapter 16 has been fully perfected. That is outside the purview of surveyors. I can say that I feel like it may have been perfected and advise my clients to seek legal counsel as to whether they feel the statute has been perfected.
Richard
... To that end, and according to every attorney and district judge I've spoke to about this subject, making the decision without regard to the others can remove their rights. This is a violation of the 14th amendment if I remember my civics correctly. While I can take testimony of parties on the ground, and I can do what the landowners want, I cannot act as a judge and say that Chapter 16 has been fully perfected. That is outside the purview of surveyors. I can say that I feel like it may have been perfected and advise my clients to seek legal counsel as to whether they feel the statute has been perfected.
Your statement: ".. making the decision without regard to the others can remove their rights.", is a bogus strawman. Whoever the 'others' may be, 'they' have no standing to object if they do not occupy and/or control the land. 'They' may have a cause of action to one of the owners who may have promised something, but 'their' recourse is limited to the entity making the 'promise'.
Study the quote from Curtis Brown's 1979 talk:
In my early writings, I generally advocated that surveyors should locate land boundaries in accordance with a written deed; all conveyances based upon unwritten rights should be referred to attorneys for resolution. Within recent years there have been cases, and one in particular, wherein surveyors have been held liable for failure to react to a change in ownership created by prolonged possession. The purpose of this paper is to re-examine what a surveyor should do in the event title has been altered by a legal transfer of title by prolonged possession.
Your claim that 'legal counsel' must be consulted is the same as a person with a driver's license saying they cannot realize that going 65 mph in a 35 mph zone is speeding. That statement would support revoking the drivers license and, in my opinion, a surveyor who claims he cannot understand the meaning of the evidence he recovers has provided the evidence necessary to revoke the surveyor's license.
Richard Schaut
Richard
I fundamentally disagree. Whether or not land has changed via AP or some other unwritten doctrine is not within the purview of land surveyors in not only my opinion, but the rest of the State of Texas. Just because I understand Chapter 16, doesn't mean that I know all of the nuances.
As I've said before, between you and Leon, I know more about this subject that I ever would have. You and Leon and JBS have caused me to research it until I felt very comfortable with the subject. My comfort zone extends only to recognizing the problems, and empowering my clients with the possible remedies to the problems. As you've said over and over, it's not our land, it's theirs. The final decision on whether to retain legal counsel and file a trespass to try title suit is theirs alone, regardless of what I or you think. Whether the judge rules that they have standing to file it is within his purview and not mine.
In this particular case, I used old occupation for where the lines are. I showed all of the conflicts with the record. I also showed, per the public record, how long I could PROVE the occupation had been in place. I showed all of the conflicts with other possession as well. I cannot fix everything, and do not view myself as just a surveyor who "reports the facts". If I were, I wouldn't ever set a corner on but the simplest of surveys. I've stepped out and made a professional decision on where I think a reasonable court would set the lines based on MY KNOWLEDGE of the evidence and my application of other statutory laws and case law. However, it only takes one landowner to disagree and it throws it into court and then the judge makes the FINAL decision. My survey, however, is backed up with all of the data known to me, laws and other written documents to support my case. I do not worry about my board taking issue with me on this case as I've gone above and beyond what most surveyors do when presented with facts like this. Ultimately, it will keep me and my license safe. That is where the final decision and analysis for me comes down to.
But what do I know, I'm probably just some dippy idiot who spent my clients money unnecessarily by trying to cover all of the bases. I should have just show the Tierra Grande article and shot every fence post.