Do you think that right of ways might have changed since 1928? Up here in East Central Florida, that is always taken into account. Call the county or city and ask questions. I assume we all do that when we don't have a current title.....
Bow Tie Surveyor, post: 418761, member: 6939 wrote: Title insurance commitments are not real title reports, they are just an insurance policy produced by companies who only do as much title research as their actuarial analysis says they need to remain profitable.
warren ward PLS CO OK, post: 418774, member: 12536 wrote: when there are problems, do your own research. No one knows what surveyors know. No one has better professional training to solve problems than surveyors - no one.
my two pennies from the perspective of a long-time staff RPLS at a large firm, a small business owner, and now a survey reviewer at a title company:
i'd caution about speaking (or thinking) in absolutes. and while i agree with both of you to a large extent, both statements fall short imo.
the first 7-8 years i had my license i always had a title commitment/report ("report" used here as a catch-all term) for any job, regardless. sidewalk easement across grandma's corner: report. topo of a ditch: report. darryl 1 jr. and darryl 2 jr. want to split darryl sr.'s tract into two: report. perhaps i was spoiled, i don't know. if i didn't have a title report with the work order, i just asked for one and it was ordered and i got it in short order.
when i became a business owner i came to understand that this sometimes (very infrequently) meant that i myself shelled out the couple/three hundred bucks to get the info. but it usually just gets absorbed into the fees for the job. at some point very early i came to understand (or "decide", perhaps- maybe i'm wrong to this day) that, as a surveyor, my best ally in almost every single job i did was the title company. and, in fact, the vast majority of the time the title company is the defacto client, regardless of who is paying the fee. or, if the public is the true client, the title company is the vested user of my end product.
now that i've been here a while it seems truer than ever. however, i work at one title agency only and feel no more qualified to comment on the motives or methods of the whole industry- now that i'm a part of it- than i did when i was "just" a practicing RPLS (which i will certainly be again in the future). i work at a HIGHLY respected company, and have a much more informed perspective as to the state of the industry than i did before. and yes, bow tie, you are GENERALLY correct about a good hunk of the current big player underwriters in business currently. the title business is about managed risk, afterall. and i am still somewhat taken aback by how my S.O.P. detective skills are treated like magic by the team of abstractors and examiners here (who are, as a unit, a team of all-stars in their field).
BUT... i still don't know why you wouldn't want to walk into any job without a title report issued from a title company. even if you have to pay for it. it may well be wrong somehow, it may well miss something somewhere. it absolutely does NOT replace your interest and/or responsibility to perform your own research. and the title examiners and abstractors are your FRIENDS- their job, while somewhat different than yours, has essentially the same purpose: eliminate all unknowns and uncertainties to the extent possible. i can assure you the "calculated risk" type decisions are not made at their level, and they no more want a surprise than do you. i'd suggest any surveyor would do well to get to know their examiners and abstractors- if you only deal with escrow agents then you're largely dealing with gladhanders who won't understand your more technical and nuanced issues.
i'm not the world's best surveyor. i've made my share of mistakes. one thing i always have made sure of, though, that i wasn't going to make any determination of anything without having exhausted all the sources i knew of for background on any particular problem or job. and i don't think i'll ever know where EVERYTHING is hidden, but i'll bet you i know where more goodies can be found than 95% of the practitioners in this area. so i'll do my own homework every time, but unless your particular title company is just that bad i just can't see why you wouldn't work without the report. seems to me like if you went hunting you'd stop and pick up some ammo on the way out. it may not guarantee you'll kill anything, but it's certainly going to improve your chances over beating a deer over the head with the stock end of a rifle.
Brian McEachern, post: 418746, member: 9299 wrote: Also, in your opinion does including "survey performed without benefit of title" exclude a surveyor from liability of an inaccurate drawing?
inaccurate drawing? that doesn't seem related to title to me. and perhaps i'm splitting hairs, but the syntax suggests a bad CAD exercise, as opposed to what i think you mean, which is more along the lines of a disputable determination, which would be a title issue.
and i guess that leads me to ask is a determination necessary? one thing i've learned over the years is that occasionally (not often) two goobers screwed up the deal way back in the beginning in 1843 or thereabouts. and since goobers tend to beget goobers, nobody has ever solved (or even noticed) the problem. suddenly you or i gets hired to come "survey my line so's i can put up a fence" and unwittingly opens pandora's bait box. i've never considered it my job or my responsibility to make a title determination. measure what's on the ground. show everything- the location of all the disputed lines, the areas of all everything, clear and disputed and otherwise. write 13 descriptions for every possible outcome, if that's what it takes. but this pervasive compulsion of us (whether it's ego driven or based upon some misunderstanding of our expertise and/or authority) to say "TITLE ENDS HERE"... it's dangerous. both in terms of personal liability and as a discharge of our professional duties.
surveyors do know things nobody else knows. but guess what- nobody has better training to solve SURVEY problems than surveyors. title issues are often not survey issues.
flyin solo makes many great points. He knows that of which he speaks.
The only problem is that we need to know the history of the adjoiners and sometimes the entire subdivision before we get too carried away. You will not get that information from a title company without spending far too many dollars. You need to sort that out for yourself by becoming as knowledgeable as possible about title work.
Case in point: I have a little project right now that is a bastardized, three-tracts-in-one, type of deal that needs to be reformed into two tracts. First came the southwest quarter of the section. Then came the northwest quarter of the southwest quarter of the section. Then came the northwest quarter of the northwest quarter of the southwest quarter of the section. Then came the south half of the northwest quarter of the northwest quarter of the southwest quarter of the section. Then some bonehead invented the north two and a half acres and the south two and a half acres of that (but we all know it's not really five acres to start with). Then a deal was struck between the owners of the two supposed two and a half acre tracts to slice a bit off of one to go to the other and a differently sized slice to go the opposite direction. Also, the north tract had a 75' x 210' tract chopped out of its northwest corner. All of that occurred more than 50 years ago. The title company doesn't really care about anything over 20 to 40 years old other than the descriptions. They aren't going to tell me anything about the subject tract more than what I can learn while trying to figure out where the adjoiners rights stop and start. Oh, yeah, toss in figuring out which part of the tract is already inside the city limits and how wide the road is on the front based on whether it is inside the city limits or still a county road.
And, all of that for $99.95 and completed the day you called me about it.;);)
