Dane Ince mentioned the Spanish or Mexican rancho grant in California as an example of a title that was (I assume) senior to that of the United States in the land of presentday California. This was because many of the titles originated during Spanish and Mexican sovereignty and were recognized as valid as one of the conditions of the Treaty between the U.S. and Mexico by which the United States took possession of what had been Alta California.
One particularly interesting feature of some of those grants was that the boundaries of many grants existed only as a diseño,a sort of topographic sketch, showing a certain quantity of land in relation to land features. The boundaries had often not actually been completely run out and marked prior to the United States taking possession of California.
I'm thinking that the variety of court cases dealing with these land grants may present the details reasonably fully. One specific issue that will probably have been litigated is that of the boundary between some senior Mexican grant and the lands adjoining it to which the United States took title and subsequently subdivided under the PLSS.
Can any Californiano provide a link to a site that discusses the rancho grants and the attendant litigation in any great detail, or it the subject one that California surveyors don't deal with that often?
Kent
this link provides a little background:
Ranchos of California
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranchos_of_California
Thanks for that link Mike, I did not know there was such a wiki. it is rather accurate to my mind.
Kent: a diseño is Not a topo, at least those used for establishing the Ranchos were not. They are true boundary plats with topographical features illustrated as the bounds. I have had the distinct pleasure of spending many days reviewing some of the originals and their accompanying notes and documents in the Bancroft Library in Berkeley. I was, and still am, in awe.
all Ranchos are rather unique, Tzabaco is a favorite of mine, having been discredited and sectionalized on the ground but later proven... many titles use Section X, Township X, Range X, Rancho Tzabaco in the preamble rather than Mount Diablo Base and Meridian. The original Township Plat and notes were used in draft and never confirmed. Ca State Lands has copies, I can't find my copy at the moment, must be in the "vault".
Squatter Wars in Sonoma County is a fun read: http://users.ap.net/~chenae/socowars.html
I grew up in El Molino Rancho: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancho_El_Molino
A mix of Russian fur traders on the coast very near the Mexican settlers, the Missions, and later some brief presence of John Sutter and gold rush times, and later many Cinnabar mineral claims.
====
My early days in surveying where I began at home now make me grin when I hear people speak of PLSS v. M&B v. Colonial surveys... we had all that and so much more!
The history of the surveys and titles of the tideland, swamp and overflow and submerged lands of San Francisco Bay should have volumes of data alone.
There are Ranchos all over the place in my area but I have not had the pleasure of trying to establish the outer boundary of one. By now, we deal with them mostly like a regular block survey with roads along the interior section lines of the plats that subdivided the Ranchos 100+ years ago. One Rancho line that comes into play is the line between Rancho Del Paso and Rancho San Juan that runs through the middle of Fair Oaks Blvd., the main artery road in Carmichael, CA. You don't want to use anything on the west side of the road to survey on the east side because there is a fairly large gap between the two Ranchos and the subsequent subdivisions thereof. The gap's just out there under the road and nobody worries about it too much.
> The gap's just out there under the road and nobody worries about it too much.
LOL, What better place to hide the gap.
I think we've all seen many old surveys where trying to move from one block into another is nearly impossible.
Since the original mons for these ranchos no longer exist, and we all know that junior monuments can never control a senior line, I sure am glad I've never had to retrace it.
How do you do it Steve? How do you do it?
ea
Did you just say "never"?;-)
ea
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
no wonder
No wonder we have such problems as a profession. Half the profession takes everything literally, to the exclusion of common sense and the OTHER half does not know the definition of the word "literally", LITERALLY.
For eapls2708, I suggest BEST AVAILABLE EVIDNECE.
no wonder
And others don't recognize sarcasm.
BTW, I never use EVIDNECE. It'll steer you wrong every time.
I do however, always use the best available EVIDENCE after considering ALL of the available evidence. Sometimes, that means a junior monument as being the best evidence as to the location of a senior line.
Thanks for the info. One thing that is unusual about the Spanish and Mexican grants in Texas that I'd suspect would be true of those in Alta California also was that the survey was actually the mechanism by which possession was delivered to the grantee. It would be interesting to know what the laws of Mexico in particular provided.
Bud Uzes's book (available from CLSA) has an appendix section which has copies of all the paperwork needed to get a Rancho grant. The particular rancho he chose to use for this purpose was Sausalito in Marin County. That Rancho is probably worth a billion plus now but the Mexican government gave it to him for free.
It says something like he is requesting a bunch of land to graze his sheep.
MUST HAVE TOUCHED A NERVE
EA THANKS FOR CORRECTING MY TYPO..... DO NOT KNOW WHAT I'D DO WITHOUT THE HELP....
I do agree that some seem not to recognize sarcasm as well
I'll stick with EVIDNECE
Kent I wonder
From my reading in the subject, the court confirmed the rancho and then the survey was made after the confirmation. The confrimation took about 17 years on average and one or tow tokk upwards of 30 years. So I am puzzled as to how the survey conducted by the surveyor general fits into the entire picture.
MUST HAVE TOUCHED A NERVE
More like touched a funny bone.
Glad to help you with yer spelling. Just let me know when you need help.
When and if I ever do any surveying in the bay area, I'll give you a call if I run across any of that evidnece stuff so you can tell me what to do with it. (be nice)
Have a great day mr. Icne, I mean Mr. Ince.
