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RW5 help

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(@rob-bachara)
Posts: 104
Topic starter
 

Using Carlson 2010 Edit/Process Raw Data menu

I ran a traverse starting at pt1-pt6 (pt 7 is the closing shot). Right after I took shot 7(1), I started shooting SS's from the same setup (BS5-OC6-FS7). When I run the process routine, I get the following: "Error: Occupied pt#6 does not match 7 on line 100". If I process the trav, it closes 1-7, but I lose everything after that. Everything shows up just peachy in the split screen in the Edit/process routine. Obviously I missed something, but I don't know what. Can I insert a line(s) in the raw file to get everything to process?

I'm using TDS Survey Pro 4.4 on a Leica RCS.

 
Posted : July 30, 2010 2:54 pm
(@squinty-vernier)
Posts: 500
Registered
 

What does line 100 look like, Rob?

Rick

 
Posted : July 30, 2010 3:02 pm
(@rob-bachara)
Posts: 104
Topic starter
 

SS,OP6,FP10,AR156.38309,ZE90.41561,SD138.710,--823 5/8

 
Posted : July 30, 2010 3:11 pm
(@georgiasurveyor)
Posts: 455
 

> SS,OP6,FP10,AR156.38309,ZE90.41561,SD138.710,--823 5/8

Add an occupy and backsite. After you processed the traverse, it did not remember where you were sitting and backsighting. It thinks you moved up to 7 which of course you did not.

So 6=1 or 6=2?

 
Posted : July 30, 2010 3:20 pm
(@sean-ofarrell-3-2)
Posts: 135
Registered
 

RW5 PROBLEM

It looks like the program thinks you should be at a new setup. I've had funky things like that happen with TDS .RAW or .RW5 files. I've been able to fix them by inserting a new set up line or lines after the traverse closure.

Georgia surveyor beat me to it.

 
Posted : July 30, 2010 3:28 pm
(@rob-bachara)
Posts: 104
Topic starter
 

RW5 help cont'd

Thanks for the help; it works fine if I use no adjust. If I try to use say a compass rule, it throws things all over the place. Now, I missed my closing shot by less than .02' each way so I'm not going to sweat it. I know, Timex, not Rolex, don't start that whole bit. What if next time it's 0.2' each way? It's the principal of the thing. I put the effort in to the traverse, so I want it to process correctly.

It looks like there are a couple of weird things going on, and I wonder if any of you have seen this. I thought that if you're in the midst of a traverse, that when you go to your next setup it should default where you left off. Mine seemed to be jumping around for some reason, changing the OC and BS points around to earlier setups (like on 4, it wanted to BS 1?) Also, there are all kinds of BS circle readings in there that don't make sense; it's not like I was running around with the rod while I was trying to shoot my BS. Any ideas?

 
Posted : July 30, 2010 6:17 pm
(@georgiasurveyor)
Posts: 455
 

RW5 help cont'd

It depends how you traverse. If you use the TR routine, it moves you up immediately in the DC. If you do it manually, you must choose the BS point. As for the circle readings, just guessing without your posting the RW5, but I would guess operator error. Can you cut a section of the file and post. (an RW5 can be read in a text editor so just open in a text editor by right clicking and choosing open with notepad and copy and paste the pertinent section into your reply and then maybe we can read it and get a feel for what is going on)

 
Posted : July 30, 2010 6:31 pm
(@rob-bachara)
Posts: 104
Topic starter
 

RW5 help cont'd

I figured it might be the rodman. I'm still trying to get a hang of this setup. I did catch myself a couple of times and tried to fix it. Here is part of the original file, up to the bad sideshot "setup".

JB,NM10005A,DT07-30-2010,TM11:06:04
MO,AD0,UN2,SF1.000000,EC0,EO0.0000,AU0
SP,PN1,N 5000.00000,E 10000.00000,EL100.000,--START
OC,OP1,N 5000.0000,E 10000.0000,EL100.000,--START
BK,OP1,BP0,BS183.36480,BC44.37090
--BS Circle check : angular err= -0.00060
BK,OP1,BP0,BS183.36480,BC170.30090
LS,HI5.450,HR5.100
TR,OP1,FP2,AR166.30358,ZE89.08009,SD64.070,--828 1/2
OC,OP2,N 4935.9388,E 10000.4240,EL101.319,--828 1/2
BK,OP2,BP1,BS359.37148,BC44.37090
LS,HI5.350,HR5.100
TR,OP2,FP3,AR33.43079,ZE91.23151,SD64.085,--823 5/8
OC,OP2,N 4935.9388,E 10000.4240,EL101.319,--828 1/2
BK,OP2,BP1,BS359.37148,BC44.37090
--BS Circle check : angular err= -0.00053
BK,OP2,BP1,BS359.37148,BC33.43350
TR,OP2,FP3,AR220.09269,ZE92.32132,SD103.707,--823 5/8
OC,OP1,N 5000.0000,E 10000.0000,EL100.000,--START
BK,OP1,BP2,BS179.37148,BC44.37090
--BS Circle check : angular err= -0.00207
BK,OP1,BP2,BS179.37148,BC237.34550
LS,HI5.230,HR6.000
TR,OP1,FP4,AR310.20348,ZE88.26203,SD65.747,--823 1/2
OC,OP3,N 4832.9111,E 9989.5011,EL96.978,--823 5/8
BK,OP3,BP2,BS6.03067,BC237.34550
--BS Circle check : angular err= 0.00130
BK,OP3,BP2,BS6.03067,BC237.35130
TR,OP3,FP4,AR310.20557,ZE88.26225,SD65.736,--823 1/2
OC,OP4,N 4845.6591,E 10053.9642,EL97.998,--823 1/2
BK,OP4,BP3,BS258.48493,BC44.37090
BK,OP4,BP3,BS258.48493,BC44.37090
--BS Circle check : angular err= 0.00334
--BS Circle check : angular err= 0.00000
BK,OP4,BP3,BS258.48493,BC100.28250
LS,HI5.460,HR6.500
TR,OP4,FP5,AR275.28035,ZE89.14527,SD52.766,--823 5/8
OC,OP5,N 4860.3723,E 10104.6328,EL97.651,--823 5/8
BK,OP5,BP4,BS253.48278,BC44.37090
--BS Circle check : angular err= -0.00135
BK,OP5,BP4,BS253.48278,BC300.08030
LS,HI5.510,HR7.500
TR,OP5,FP6,AR34.34571,ZE88.13158,SD148.056,--823 1/2
OC,OP6,N 5005.2587,E 10074.5125,EL100.257,--823 1/2
BK,OP6,BP5,BS168.15219,BC44.37090
--BS Circle check : angular err= 52.13060
--BS Circle check : angular err= 0.00102
BK,OP6,BP5,BS168.15219,BC52.13060
LS,HI5.570,HR5.100
TR,OP6,FP7,AR149.56214,ZE90.31232,SD74.683,--823 5/8
OC,OP6,N 5005.2587,E 10074.5125,EL100.257,--823 1/2
SS,OP6,FP10,AR156.38309,ZE90.41561,SD138.710,--823 5/8
SS,OP6,FP11,AR160.50196,ZE91.02564,SD103.573,--707
SS,OP6,FP12,AR166.38148,ZE91.51022,SD40.164,--707
SS,OP6,FP13,AR234.38567,ZE94.34261,SD11.365,--400
SS,OP6,FP100,AR72.51282,ZE89.06398,SD21.966,--602
SS,OP6,FP101,AR108.51162,ZE89.06289,SD35.437,--602
SS,OP6,FP102,AR113.38012,ZE89.16078,SD66.694,--602
SS,OP6,FP103,AR119.16189,ZE89.14434,SD79.345,--602
SS,OP6,FP104,AR316.08468,ZE92.18488,SD11.959,--291
SS,OP6,FP105,AR298.27561,ZE92.39060,SD12.753,--291
SS,OP6,FP106,AR273.00428,ZE92.43324,SD18.829,--502

 
Posted : July 30, 2010 7:43 pm
(@georgiasurveyor)
Posts: 455
 

RW5 help cont'd

OK, couple of things:

1) looking at your bk (ei:BK,OP1,BP0,BS183.36480,BC44.37090)this is telling me that you are either running azimuths or someone has set the angle to send to circle wrong in the data collector. If you are running angle right (and from the second setup it appears that you are) then you need to send to circle so that the gun is told to zero before you read circle. If you look closely at the raw file, the same angle was sent to the gun from the first three setups (1-0-2,2-1-3, and 1-2-4). If you will notice: BC44.37090, this is your back circle and it is pretty consistent on all your set ups. They are not sending to circle or are sending 44.37090 each time. Looking further in, the file has been edited. The TR's were originally SS. If they had been TR, then you would not have had the shot from 2, backing 1 setting three then moving up on 1 backing 2 to set 4 happen. That screams edited raw. I presume that is you ran conventionally 1-2-3-4-5-1-2 with 6 being 1 and 7 being 2 so that you had an angular and distance closure, but it is too early for me to crunch that presumption to make sure.

2) as to the original problem, here is the error:

TR,OP6,FP7,AR149.56214,ZE90.31232,SD74.683,--823 5/8
OC,OP6,N 5005.2587,E 10074.5125,EL100.257,--823 1/2
SS,OP6,FP10,AR156.38309,ZE90.41561,SD138.710,--823 5/8

You need to add this line after the "OC" line:
> BK,OP6,BP5,BS168.15219,BC44.37090

This will tell your gun what you were using to backsight from the setup. Anytime you finish running a traverse and then start running your sideshots separately, you must reoccupy the point and rebacksight. You DO NOT HAVE to do it in the field, but if you do not, then it requires you to edit the data file in the office. Generally the less massaging of raw data you have to do in the office to make it process, the less likely you are to have a screw up.

3) One final word of caution: Every angle in the raw file will be off by the amount of the BC for that setup. That means if your gun read BK,OP3,BP2,BS6.03067,BC237.35130
TR,OP3,FP4,AR310.20557,ZE88.26225,SD65.736,--823 1/2
then the AR would be off by 237.3513 making the true angle from that setup 72.44417 if I remember correctly. It has been two years since I have processed TDS, but that seems correct in my mind this early.

 
Posted : July 31, 2010 4:03 am
(@rob-bachara)
Posts: 104
Topic starter
 

RW5 help cont'd

There is definitely something strange going on; the portion of the file I posted is right off the card (Leica 1103), and I didn't edit anything from the controller. I believe it is set to AZ's, but I'll double check.

The 1-2-4 setup was never intended, that's when I mentioned before that it seemed to be jumping around. I guess I'll have to read up on the TDS to see what is going on. When I first got the rig I ran a traverse in the field behind the house and it worked like a charm, going to the next setup automatically, processing the SS's, etc. I can live with the unadjusted data because I got lucky, but I definitely need to figure this out. Thanks for the help.

 
Posted : July 31, 2010 6:50 am
(@georgiasurveyor)
Posts: 455
 

RW5 help cont'd

Here is the section of the 4.4 manual on true azimuths, hope it helps:

Surveying with True Azimuths
Some people need to collect all of their horizontal angles in the form
of azimuths. Survey Pro can help automate this process by computing
the backsight azimuth after each new setup in a traverse and
updating the backsight circle and total station’s horizontal angle
accordingly.
1. You can setup on any existing point and use any other point in
the job as a backsight if the coordinate system is properly aligned
with true north. If not, you can occupy any point as long you have
a known azimuth to any reference.
2. In the Surveying Settings screen ( Job > Settings > Surveying ),
confirm that the Survey with True Azimuths checkbox is checked.
3. Setup the total station over the occupy point and aim it toward
your backsight.
4. Access the Backsight Setup screen; enter the Occupy Point, and
toggle the .BS Direction. / .BS Point. button to BS Direction..
Note: When backsighting on a point, selecting BS Direction can still
be used, as described next, making it easier to view the azimuth to
the backsight.
5. If backsighting a known azimuth, enter it in the BS Direction
field. If backsighting a point, use the shortcut method to enter
the azimuth from the occupy point to the backsight point in the
BS Direction field. For example, if you are occupying Point 1 and
backsighting Point 2, enter 1-2 in the BS Direction field. Once the
cursor leaves that field, the computed azimuth will replace what
you typed.
6. Tap the Circle… button, enter the backsight azimuth in the
Backsight Circle field and tap Send to Instrument (or Set when
running in Manual Mode). This will set the backsight circle as
the horizontal angle in the total station and set the same angle as
the Backsight Circle value. This angle will then be subtracted
from all horizontal angles sent from the total station.
7. Begin your survey. When you traverse to a
new point, the New Occupy Point dialog
box will open showing you the azimuth
computed to the new backsight point from
the new occupy point. Once you are setup
over the new occupy point, and aiming
toward the new backsight point, press the
.Send Circle to Instrument. button to
update the Backsight Circle value and the
horizontal angle on the total station.
Repeat this step after setting up on each
new traverse point.

One other thing from the manual. There is a image in it that shows the screen for azimuths at the new setup. It shows what the new backsight circle should be. If that is not coming up, you may not be in azimuths.

 
Posted : July 31, 2010 7:40 am
(@georgiasurveyor)
Posts: 455
 

Where is Larry P when you need him

You might as well use the unadjusted stuff, Carlson would not be able to do much with this. You do not have a closed traverse. To have a closed traverse, you must have a distance to your initial set up (which you have) AND an angle from your point 6, sitting on 7/1 looking at 2. A true closed traverse needs to have distance error and angular error. This is something that I have seen often from younger crews that grew up on data collectors, they tie to the starting point and consider that a closed traverse, it is not. Without the closing angle, you are VERY limited in what adjustments you can perform on the survey: a crandall or least squares. LS is not appropriate so you are really left only with the crandall. It is possible, however remote, that when your angular error was adjusted that your 0.02' error actually becomes a 0.20' error. This would mean your 1:23470 traverse would actually be a 1:2347 traverse. The likelihood of angular error is greatly increased by the short distances you have on your traverses. Add to that they single shooting of traverse points and your danger goes greatly up. This is evidenced by the erroneous shot on #4. You shot it almost a full 0.01' different the second time. That is half your error of closure unadjusted. And take a look at your angular error below:

TR,OP1,FP4,AR310.20348,ZE88.26203,SD65.747,--823 1/2
TR,OP3,FP4,AR310.20557,ZE88.26225,SD65.736,--823 1/2

Just the two shots show an angular variance of 20.9". That is pretty significant. Just presuming that to be the only wrong one, and using the original angle would put your #7 in 0.035' different location. So, it is indeed possible that you have compensating errors that are giving you the 0.02' distance. Basically, I think that a bigger issue for you is removing systematic errors from your surveys. This is done by turning sets of angles and distances, especially important in shooting short distances. Also, using tripods and tribrachs would help with a consistent error of distance., you can hang a bob from under the tripod for line which would allow shorter distances, but I would still make every attempt to make them longer than 65'. Then shoot your irons from multiple setups if possible. This will give you more points that are duplicates and then you can run a Least Squares adjustment on the survey. Lastly, you need to either reoocupy the first point or cheat ( by this I mean start the survey by saying you are on #1 when you are really on #2, (get your distance first and then put coords in for #1 and #2. Then tell dc that you moved up on #2 and backing #1 and reshoot #1 as a backsight and then keep going. Note this only works on a survey that is 2d. It will really jack up your elevations if you are running them. When you sit on #1 at the end, it is the first time you have sat there so you save a set up.)

Don't mean for this to sound like I am bashing you, just trying to share a little experience as to what I see as a more underlying issue with your survey. Hope you don't take this the wrong way.

Matt

 
Posted : July 31, 2010 8:58 am
(@dave-karoly)
Posts: 12001
 

Where is Larry P when you need him

I do all my Survey work 3D, always. Even just a simple traverse through the woods.

I am still encountering resistance and quizzical looks but 1) it only takes a few seconds to get a TH/HI and 2) it gives more opportunities to isolate blunders.

And if GPS is involved then 3D should be always used because GPS by it's nature is 3D.

 
Posted : July 31, 2010 9:36 am
(@georgiasurveyor)
Posts: 455
 

Where is Larry P when you need him

I can see doing it in 3d, and actually pretty much did so myself toward the time that I moved to the office. There are times when 2d works a lot easier, such as traversing in terrain like the blue ridge. But here in Florida it is so flat that there really is no excuse not to run elevations. Kind of like how I always 3 wire bench runs. A lot of PCs here will single run one if it is not critical. To me, it takes a few more seconds but makes it a heck of a lot easier to catch an error and to adjust the run afterwards.

The reason that I was warning about the 3d is that when I was just starting as a PC, I forgot about that. Had bust in a topo. That was an expensive learning experience. Everyone where I worked used that trick. But most of them did not do topo's.

 
Posted : July 31, 2010 11:23 am
(@brad-ott)
Posts: 6185
Registered
 

With my vintage (1998) Leica TCA 1100 robot with TDS on board, I have been using this trick with success.

It seems dumb but it works.

After I setup and backsight and am happy with my circle etc, BUT BEFORE I take a sideshot or start staking I EXIT the TDS software program on board & then restart the program.

This seems to save the setup settigs in the rw5 file better for me.

Good Luck.

 
Posted : July 31, 2010 12:57 pm
(@rob-bachara)
Posts: 104
Topic starter
 

Where is Larry P when you need him

No offense taken because you're 100% right. The reason it worked on my "practice" run is because I did it the right way. No excuse other than me FK9'ing it.(FK9=screw the pooch. Feel free to use that one). I will now go to the box for 2 minutes and feel shame. Thanks for the input.

 
Posted : August 1, 2010 9:32 am