Having a proper title search done first is very smart. That shortens the surveyor's work some, but, as too many of us have learned, title companies worry primarily about risk. Many only go back a certain number of years to evaluate the validity of the chain of title. The surveyor will look at that information, plus that of any adjoiners, and go back as far in time as needed to ascertain the correct sequence of conveyances and the rights involved with each conveyance. Your primary goal is to determine your rights. Secondary is pinpointing the correct locations for monumenting those rights.
Robert Rolleston, post: 333683, member: 10403 wrote: ...But I have one neighbor saying they own it and their land was surveyed just a few years ago. He says he had it excluded from the survey so that he don't have to pay taxes on it.
If he owns it on a separate deed, that is one thing, but he would be paying taxes on it. If he hired a surveyor to stake his boundary "but don't go all the way to the North-most line and show a different acreage on it than I actually own", I don't think any surveyor would do that. He would be committing fraud (or something like that). If he has a signed and sealed boundary plat, that would more than likely be what he owns. If his deed calls to an acreage, that is probably the acreage the tax assessor would charge him for. I would get a copy of his deed (if you haven't already, I may have missed that above) and see if it says something like "containing X acres" at the end of the description.
How much the land is worth might dictate to me how bad I want to spend the $2500 on a survey. I'm glad you have a taste of the work that goes behind doing a land survey. "I have done some measuring but stuff is so far off in the area that it makes my head spin."....That's the whole point, we are often figuring out how to put a square jigsaw-puzzle piece into a Round hole. (okay that metaphor didn't work so well). Often times boundaries don't fit the bearing and distance calls and we have to rely on senior ownership and other factors to decide where the actual intent of the deed puts the boundary.
Another factor you need to consider. A survey might not prove what you want it to prove. Be prepared to find out that you don't have any ownership in the "unknown" parcel.
All of this is great advice. I highly recommend the title search. One of the things that I've found is that if you have a reputable title company and surveyor, they can work together to get the history of the land sorted out. I have a title company that I recommend to all of my clients here. The title officer that I use is nothing short of a miracle worker, finding deeds and documents that mere mortals could never get!
One other thing, which I believe was already mentioned, don't "skimp" on this process. You can get the "cut rate surveyor" to go out and lay out boundaries and set corners, but you get what you pay for. If you get a quality survey done right from the start, it gives you a strong position in the event that adjoining owners try to claim that the survey is incorrect. A good surveyor will spend the time and effort to do a thorough job in establishing boundaries. And a good survey will stand behind their work afterwards as well.
Dan Dunn, post: 333733, member: 911 wrote: You acquired the property this past July with a Quit Claim Deed from Lee Coon who acquired it by a Quit Claim Deed from a Tax Sale. The descripion of the property in your deed is just the parcel number in the tax map.
On the Warren County GIS all of your property to the west of Viele Pond Road is wetlands.
The image of the map that you show above is from the recorded survey and subdivision from the property to your east sows the area with your blue dot to belong to Packard. The tax map and GIS, not the most reliable sources, shows it belonging to Kolze.
You really need to have a full title search done and then a survey with the corners marked. There is very little that anyone here is going to be able to do to help you, the work needs to be done on the ground and at the County Clerk's office in Lake George.
"You really need to have a full title search done and then a survey with the corners marked. "
I'll second that!
This is a copy of the pre Tax Sale deed (Deed Book 726 Page 71). Based on the consideration in his deed (Deed Book 5194 Page 257) the quote for the survey is more than they paid for the land.
Dan Dunn, post: 333792, member: 911 wrote: This is a copy of the pre Tax Sale deed (Deed Book 726 Page 71). Based on the consideration in his deed (Deed Book 5194 Page 257) the quote for the survey is more than they paid for the land.
Same thing I was looking at the other day. Did you look that up online? I found a couple older than that but could barely read them. And yes that is one reason I am trying to do some of my own research I it's just a cheap camp property. His deed does not show anything about that piece of land. Neither does the person behind me. I get the feeling that this 80 year old man is set in his ways and trying to get me to leave. Seems like he don't want me there.
Is there a way to look up some deeds online? That would be very helpful.
Dan Dunn, post: 333792, member: 911 wrote: This is a copy of the pre Tax Sale deed (Deed Book 726 Page 71). Based on the consideration in his deed (Deed Book 5194 Page 257) the quote for the survey is more than they paid for the land.
This is common here in Northern NY. Tax sale parcel is re-sold several times. Never surveyed, no abstract, and then when their is a dispute of property line a realtor pointed out to buyer, everyone immediate gets concerned. Many parcels along lakes in the Adirondacks are what we call "bowling alleys". Parcels 100ft of lake frontage by 2000ft back to state lands. Most land owners use just the 100ft X 100ft along lake shore. We find pipes and blazed lines 10's even 100ft off line when they are pushed up the hill, and away from lake by a land owner using a compass and 50ft of garden hose for measuring.
We've had to survey out entire great lot's with parcel lines 5000ft away (for just one of the 100ft wide parcels), just to tie into original forest surveys from 1890's. To find out that every lake parcel has cloudy title. The deeded parcels are all off by 85 to 96ft, so your camp is built on your neighbors deeded parcel, all the way down the lake shore. We have been doing boundary line agreements along the lake. The trouble is no one whats to "lose" their lake frontage width defined in deed. Especially after one lawyer piped up and tells everyone the frontage is $10,000 per linear foot.
When I began surveying, there was a booklet the title companies would provide called an Abstract of Title on property that went back to when the Headright was granted. It would contain a copy of every public record involving that property.
A few years ago a client wanted me to ask the local Title Company about a title search for the sequence of deeds on a property that would go back to the first creation that was around 1860.
It was reasonable for the first 10 years and then at a cost per every 10 year period that put it into thousands of dollars very fast.
My take was that the local title company just did not want to do that any more.
When certain properties are involved, they happily provide me with a "run list" that is pretty much a printout of a computer search of the property that lists every deed Vol & Page, Grantor & Grantee and the property description in abstract shorthand.
B-)
The key probably is in the older descriptions of the adjoining tracts (Pasco, Cautcher and the highway). How did they get created?
Think about it. At one time there may have been a tract of hundreds or thousands of acres with a single description. Many tracts may have been cut from that or maybe only two or three. Then whichever of those includes your tract was sliced into smaller tracts, one of which includes your tract, and another that might include one of your adjoiners, or may be not. A later subdivision may have created your adjoiners tracts, but not yours. There are umpteen ways your tract may have first came into existence. Learning that process is what is required in order to grasp which division is primary, which is secondary and which is tertiary in this process of getting to the current tracts that exist. Somewhere along the way there may have been a lawsuit and a ruling declaring something different from anything in writing prior to that time. It can be horribly complicated sometimes. The solution isn't in any magic GIS drawings available on line. It's buried in the various records.
Wish I had a copy of the survey map from the neighbor but should be getting it this weekend. It showed my property and the neighbors property one piece. Funny thing is in the neighbors deed it says one of their parcels is 1 acre and the one next to mine as being 2 acres. Now it shows the 2 acre parcel as being .48 acres and mine being 1.49 acres. And number does not match up property number wise. I see 62-1-8 62-1-9 and then my property has a high number like 62-1-103 on the old map. Almost like the two acre parcel was split up. But the most recent deed sale still shows their property as a one acre piece and two acre piece. Says the two acre parcel was used for getting water from a spring next to the two acre parcel on a 102 acre lot. Kinda fun finding out all this history. Even though it's confusing.
Great info. I am hitting a dead end with the deed when trying to find out where it was split up from a two acre lot. All the book pages that lead to that are missing. Maybe I have to go to the office and see what they physically have.
Was able to get survey maps of all my neighbors that surround the part in question. And did more deed research. We actually own two acres. The 1.5 acres is on the wetland side and the rest is on the dry side. I made a PDF of what I found.
Question is if I am surrounded by surveyed property. Shouldn't our property be what is left? http://rollestonelectric.com/pdf/property.pdf
Did you call Vandusen & Steves or D.L. Dickinson for a survey price? Seems like they've done work right in that area and could give you a good price...
Yes I received a quote from Vandusen and also asking others. David Barrass did the survey of the property behind me and I am waiting for a quote from them. They probably have most of my line mapped out since the property behind me goes just about all around me.
I didn't go back through this thread to figure out which was your property but I would just caution you to not put too much stock in the Packard subdivision plat you included in the PDF. I noticed the note at the bottom that says "This does not represent a field survey by this office. This map has been prepared according to deeds and maps as referenced". I would also recommend that you don't use Dickinson to survey your property if he is willing to create a subdivision plat from a "paper survey".
The biggest mystery to me is why would this guy say he owns something but submit a revised deed stating the size and description of the property along with a map. Seems the way to protect what you own would be to have it all surveyed out and drawn up and then submit it so it shows you own it. Unless he is just lying saying he owns something he don't. All I have found does not state anything what he is trying to tell me.
Robert Rolleston, post: 334533, member: 10403 wrote: The biggest mystery to me is why would this guy say he owns something but submit a revised deed stating the size and description of the property along with a map. Seems the way to protect what you own would be to have it all surveyed out and drawn up and then submit it so it shows you own it. Unless he is just lying saying he owns something he don't. All I have found does not state anything what he is trying to tell me.
most land owners have no clue what they Really own or where it Exactly is. they just listen to somebody, or like you do some research but don't enlist the help of a professional.
I don't work in your area, but in my world a Survey is only an OPINION. it is not a proof of ownership.
A "revised deed" is a piece of paper: "you can't sell what you don't own". The chain of title will tell you who owns it, then a Deed from that person is effective.
your thought/comment "Unless he is just lying..." is counter productive.
take a breath, collect your thoughts, organize your documents, prepare a presentation... then have a little chat with him and discuss your findings with an attitude of discovery and sharing.
Yes I have calmly net with him a few times. He keeps saying it states in his deed but all he ever shows me is a bunch of old maps. Of the old and new road. I think the answer is in where they moved the road and changes the lines around. I don't see much in his deeds but will keep trying and looking.