PS Licensure questions...

> How do you feel about it—was it a decision that was made easily? If you have passed the FS and PS, how did it impact your career?

Professional Surveying Licensure is a complex subject indeed. Although I was licensed by examination over thirty years ago, I was approved for examination through long established practice. That is no longer an option in Oklahoma and a degree is required for examination application.

At the time I became licensed there were bus loads of licensed surveyors that had "grandfathered" the process and given license numbers in 1968 and 1969 merely by applying and furnishing reference letters. Early in my career the license actually meant very little as there were many folks around that could "sign" work. My accomplishment meant more personally to me than economically. I did not receive any advancement or pay increase after my licensure. At the time that was probably the norm.

The reason I say it is a complex subject is the nature of the business. If a person is studying and working toward licensure, that person is almost assuredly working for a licensed surveyor. The organization already has someone in "responsible charge" of all the surveying. I've often joked that a young person is good help one day and then competition the next day after receiving their license.

Being a professional surveyor has provided me a very good living. I am happy that educational requirements are mandatory for examination nowadays. This is still a faced paced and ever changing profession. Technology has elevated the profession to where geodetic locations are a common part of our everyday work. When I first got into surveying geodetics were merely chapters in a book.

Simply put, I would not have a career if I wasn't licensed. But licensure is not a guarantee of success, nor should it be.

I would enjoy hearing from some of the younger ladies and gentlemen that have entered the profession since my time. I bet we all have different stories and what our licenses mean to us.

I can only speak for myself but passing the LSIT and later the State and Federal licensure tests was for me, life or death. I passed both on the first go around as soon as I was qualified, because failure to me was simply not an option. It was the only way I was going to take control of my profession future and write my financial ticket out of living pay check to pay check. I got my ticket in 2006 and soon discovered that along with a great deal more responsibility, I still had a lot more to learn (I still do). Three months after getting my license I got a call from another surveyor I'd worked for in the past, looking to retire and for someone to fill his shoes. The man had been surveying longer than I'd been alive. Though a bit intimidated, I ended up taking over for him in 2007. So I will say the impact for me was huge. Sometimes you don't really know what your capable of until you've tested your limits and it's been my experience that all of us have far more potential that we never exploit because of our innate fear of failure or complacency in the status quo.

“I bargained with Life for a penny,
And Life would pay no more,
However I begged at evening
When I counted my scanty store;
For Life is a just employer,
and gives you what you ask
But once you have set the wages,
Why, you must bear the task.
I worked for a menial’s hire,
Only to learn, dismayed
That any wage I had asked of Life,
Life would have willingly paid”
–Jessie B. Rittenhouse

>
> ......... not a surveyor myself, but work for a company that publishes materials for the FS and PS exams. I’m putting together some articles about licensure .............

I suggest you simply make links to the many published articles written by real surveyors. (or ask for permission to copy their work)

No offense but a layman's rehash does not have much appeal and often misses the mark by many dozen smoots.

Myself, I started surveying in 1970, got licensed in 1981, and never regretted that commitment. (well some times I had some sour grapes)
I am Mostly retired now but I will never fully give it up... I am far from rich but I have done well financially.

For me, zero impact. Both exams were pretty useless. A completely different examination model needs to be used.

The state specific exams I've taken provided the most challenge.

My story is a bit different from most here. My first years of licensure relative to land surveying were based on my Professional Engineer's license. I did the same work and acquired the same school of hard knocks lessons along the way. It's just that I had received a license by following an incredibly more difficult path than had been required of those obtaining their Land Surveyor's license at that point in time in my State. Of course, there were gaps in my knowledge just like every other license holder, if they will admit it. No one waits to get their license until they have experienced many years of every possible scenario in a hundred different areas of specialization. Of course, I was immediately condemned by many who had become licensed by taking a different route. They could not envision that I could be as capable as them without having taken the exact same route to licensure. The badmouthing never completely goes away. Stupid people do stupid things.

Licensing of land surveyors has become more in line with licensing of professional engineers over time. Many States insist on a four-year degree today despite many having no such educational program offered in their own State, thus requiring locals to relocate elsewhere for an extended period. Many thousands of skilled survey workers have been excluded from applying to take the examinations that were more readily available to similarly skilled workers in past decades. The average age of license holders goes up each year as fewer applicants will follow the necessary demands to even apply to take the exam based on the anticipated wages to be received by being a "company" surveyor. More license holders are sitting behind desks signing off on work performed by people they barely know, if at all. Too many haven't held a shovel in many years.

The question isn't: How to get a license? It is: Why bother getting a license?

(donning asbestos suit in preparation for the flame throwers)

I would suggest you contact the professional surveyors association in your area. Then attend a meeting of the local chapter and have a conversation with a few of the members. Posting here will never be as informative as a face to face exchange with a room full of surveyors.

This is great info -- thanks! It seems like over the course of time the importance and weight of licensure keeps evolving and growing. It sounds very similar to how more and more education is necessary to maintain even basic standards of living in industries across the board.

Thanks! I'm looking for some human perspective and personal experiences with it as well. You are all real surveyors and I'm sure this topic is endlessly complicated and always changing. I will never pretend to encapsulate it all--I am looking for advice and stories that can be shared with folks who are thinking of pursuing licensure. If you could say something to someone starting out in surveying, what would it be?

:good:

For those starting out or considering it:

The only reasonable way to start out in surveying today is by earning a degree in surveying. This could lead to a career in surveying or not. Completing the degree with lots of math and science will open doors. May lead to a career in engineering, or advanced degrees in math/science/law and so forth. It will also be the best preparation for the licensing exams as they exist today. I've had students go on to become engineers, math teachers, water treatment plant managers, high paid unlicensed construction surveyors ("badges, we don't need no stinkin badges"), in addition to licensed surveyors who own their own businesses.

All students learn and mature in college (or drop out and learn other lessons elsewhere). They may discover surveying is not for them and transfer to a different and more relaxed program of study, or discover they need more challenge and transfer to an engineering science type curriculum. Starting out especially, we don't know what we don't know.

The surveying license is out there (at least 8-10 years of study at school and work) for those that might eventually decide they want to own and operate their own business. But, it's not for everyone or even for all those in the surveying business.

I think too much emphasis is placed on getting licensed. It is left over from the days when the model was working on larger crews and learning from very experienced older hands the tricks of the trade. One worked for indentured servant wages and was rewarded eventually with a letter from the boss allowing opportunity to take the exams, the passage of which meant immediate leaving in order to be able to make a bare living at surveying on your own. But surveying has become much more complicated with much work being retracement (rather than merely measuring out) based on a plethora of case and statutory law. And the measurement part is now less skill oriented (taping, turning angles) than knowledge based (GNSS, scanning, high precision specialized measurement/metrology). It's a rare company that would have the personnel and time to teach a recruit even the basics in all of these areas. A college program will have experts in many different areas, all concentrated on student learning rather than profit. Generally speaking, if you make it through a surveying degree you will have learned to learn, and how to work hard, in addition to basic knowledge in all the content areas. It is every bit as difficult as an engineering or law degree (maybe more so because of the mix).

Opportunity is out there as the old model surveyors age and leave the workforce. Many of these surveyors became experts (in one area or another) on the job after licensure and much can be learned from them, if the student has some preparation before entering the workforce.

There's a lot to consider when starting out in a career. If one has a dream of becoming licensed and running the show, that is good and hang onto it. But pursue it with an open mind, considering all possibilities, one day at a time.

So that's it in a nutshell; professional licensing is a great goal to strive for but should not necessarily be the only reason for entering a career path.

Thanks so much for all of this great feedback!

I'm not seeing anything deserving of a flame out in that post. You shared a perspective that not many can. My own path had a few folks giving me grief. The detractors were limited to a handful of high and mightys that did not know me very well.
I moved from Missouri to Idaho in the late 90's. I could have stayed in MO and applied, but the Idaho laws gave several openings (or so I thought). Shortly after the move I discussed my situation with a board member. He informed me that I would be denied by a party line vote (PE's over PLS's). The firm I worked for at the time had offices in several States. After some research I applied in Utah. I went down and took all three tests in one sitting. 8 years later I applied for Comity in Idaho. Last year I added Washington.
The Utah license didn't see a lot of action right away. It did garner me some additional Professional credibility but didn't move me along much. Idaho was a different story. My value and standing took a huge leap forward. It took me from 'would I put this in front of X to be signed' to 'Would I sign this?'. Big difference.
Washington has not made an impact on my career yet, but it will. I intend to migrate west at retirement. I will maintain Oregon and Washington. My intention is to work boundary disputes from a few different angles. I am gaining credentials as a Mediator and building contacts to shift that direction. None of this would be possible had I given up on Licensure.
Somewhere in all this I also would like to contribute to the Survey community. Our current business models and the aging pool of Professionals concerns me. We aren't going away, but things are changing...

That's a great write up on the subject Duane!!!!!

Interesting. The Utah board tried to deny me a LS license based upon my experience working with a business partner (LS) other than as an employee (and my PE license). It was allowed under the rules at the time which they were in the process of changing when I sent my application in. I had passed all the tests, had the education and experience but kept getting stonewalled. I didn't know what was going on but I think they were trying to put me off until the rules were changed and then my experience wouldn't count. Then I would have needed to go work as an employee for next to nothing at some LS/PE firm for four years doing mostly what doesn't prepare one to be a land surveyor anyway but the experience would count under the new rules.

I finally demanded an answer on my application which was countered with I had to meet with the board. They grilled the heck out of me but I showed up with letters of recommendation (sealed) from John Stahl and Loyal Olson. I still don't know exactly what was in those letters, never got to read them but I'm sure they helped. After much going back and forth between me and the board the board vote was all the engineers (some PE/PLS) voted for me because they said I was qualified and the lone surveyor on the board voted against me.

This licensing BS ain't all what it's made up to be!!! I got a license because it's the law to do the work I do. I'm not convinced from my experience that it really protects the public as it's meant to, but that's another discussion.