I submitted a proposal for a boundary survey of about 270 acres, rural mountain property. I touched base with the guy today and the prices he quoted for proposals he received were half or less of my number. Am I that high, are others that low or is he just lying?
I will even give you some numbers:
My proposal was $32.5K
He quoted numbers in the $14K-$16K range and even said that "his buddy had 200 acres surveyed last year for $2500!"
What is the use in even trying to compete with this? :-S
How could anyone make any money by surveying 270 acres for $15K? Even a solo operation?
That certainly sounds quite low if it's rugged at all. I recently completed a 300 acre survey with 80+% open fields(flat as a pancake and no cutting) for 12K and wouldn't have done it ANY lower.
I agree I couldn't and wouldn't complete a boundary that you describe for anywhere near that low of a price, I'd go broke fast and it's brutally physical to boot. Not that extremely hard work bothers me at all, btw, it's just that I have to be well compensated for it.
They're not making any money. They're doing their office work on the kitchen table because they can't afford an office and they are using the wife's minivan for a survey vehicle when she doesn't need it.
Go west, young man. You might get 640 acres done for under $1000. Prostitutes who forget to factor in the value of the project instead of the out-of-pocket to keep a crew busy.
Yeah, it's a rugged, mountainous area. Some of the boundary runs along ridge line and some along creeks, some over hill and dale. There is a difference in elevation of about 500' from low area to high area.
That's insane. I used to propose on almost all projects where cost is a factor. Luckily we're in a position were I pretty much refuse to quote any private landowner a cost without an up front and frank discussion. More often than not I will just pass them on to someone that I know can do the work cheaper than me...saves me time and the prospective client is happy too.
David,
> My proposal was $32.5K
> He quoted numbers in the $14K-$16K range and even said that "his buddy had 200 acres surveyed last year for $2500!"
>
> What is the use in even trying to compete with this? :-S
>
> How could anyone make any money by surveying 270 acres for $15K? Even a solo operation?
Not that I am trying to complain...just be glad you are located where you are!
But, anyways...
Working up a quote right now for 120 acres in North Florida. Sometimes I wish I was back up in Georgia. About 10-15 years years ago I understand the going rate there was about 50 cents per foot (of boundary). Here in Florida, however, no one charges by the foot. But, for 10,560 feet of boundary that would be $5280, and would be much more than this job will go for. Last time I snagged a job of similar size was 4 years ago. Since then, for a like sized job I quoted $4500...didn't get it. Next opportunity, I held my breath and quoted $3750...nope. Next opportunity came and I went down to $3000...nada. Another opportunity, quoted $2500...lost it too. Now, I really, really, really need this job or will have to let my one remaining employee go. Last time I did a large job was last year year when we did a 340 acre swamp job for $3400 (10 days field time), and the land owner even complained that was too high. Right now I am debating something between $800 and $1200 for this new job opportunity even though it will likely require 5 field days. I have one low-ball competitor to the West, and one low-ball competitor to the East, and one of them usually always gets the jobs I lose out on. I have no clue what they charge or how they can even remain in business. I know the problem is not that they are working faster because of superior technology/equipment, because I was using GPS/RTK since the mid 90's, and these 2 have just gotten into GPS. I realize if I get down and compete at bottom feeder prices with them I become part of the problem (really, for 4 years now I admit we truly have been bottom feeders too), but desperate times... Gross this year will be about $75,000, and I have not paid myself anything for 4 years. Actually, I pay my business for the “privilege” of working, as I have had to loan money to the business for 3 of the past 4 years. Glad others are doing good though!
> I submitted a proposal for a boundary survey of about 270 acres, rural mountain property. I touched base with the guy today and the prices he quoted for proposals he received were half or less of my number. Am I that high, are others that low or is he just lying?
>
> I will even give you some numbers:
> My proposal was $32.5K
> He quoted numbers in the $14K-$16K range and even said that "his buddy had 200 acres surveyed last year for $2500!"
>
> What is the use in even trying to compete with this? :-S
>
> How could anyone make any money by surveying 270 acres for $15K? Even a solo operation?
For $32,500, I'm guessing there was more to it than flagging up 4 corners that aren't to far from the highway?
How long were you planning for this survey to take? At the office I used to work at, which was a regional engineering firm, that would probably be a little more than a month long job at a 3.0 multiplier.
The Bow Tie Surveyor
can i ask you approximately how many days will you need to complete the work? from fieldwork to plan preparation? and how many people will be pat of the whole project?
this is how i price my quotation. i get all overhead, taxes then add a 20% profit margin.
wait a minute, 279 acres is roughly 100 hectares. for boundary survey using GPS for main control & a total station for laying out if corners are located under canopy, it would take a survey crew of 5 about 30 days.
in the philippines, my overhead would be about $5000, add $5000 for mobilization & transportation & other miscellaneous expenses & $5000 for profit (& that is a big profit). I think your price even for continental US standards is way high.
$15k is about right based on expenses + profit margins.
my experience is that the survey team won't be spending the entire 30 days on site. 1 week for preliminary control & survey of reference points & another week for the layout. We once did a 100 hectare boundary AND topography of 50% forest areas less than 45 days.
> wait a minute, 279 acres is roughly 100 hectares. for boundary survey using GPS for main control & a total station for laying out if corners are located under canopy, it would take a survey crew of 5 about 30 days.
>
> in the philippines, my overhead would be about $5000, add $5000 for mobilization & transportation & other miscellaneous expenses & $5000 for profit (& that is a big profit). I think your price even for continental US standards is way high.
>
> $15k is about right based on expenses + profit margins.
>
>
> my experience is that the survey team won't be spending the entire 30 days on site. 1 week for preliminary control & survey of reference points & another week for the layout. We once did a 100 hectare boundary AND topography of 50% forest areas less than 45 days.
I suppose the pay rates might be a little different in the Phillipines. My crew is 1200 a day (2 man) and that is at a 3.4 multiplier. I'd probably be about double the 32K, but we deal with land that has an elevation change of 10-15' in 20 miles. The probelm we have is brazillian pepper and the everglades. You are comparing apples to oranges, they have mountains and valleys, we have swamp and more swamp. Different country, different government, different quality requirements.
> They're not making any money. They're doing their office work on the kitchen table because they can't afford an office and they are using the wife's minivan for a survey vehicle when she doesn't need it.
I survey out of my 94 Escort Sedan. While I'm often laughed at, I laugh all the way to the bank. Having the high overhead of fancy office & New Vehicles is one business model, but not the only one.
Plus, using tall stakes, a two man crew can rip through 300 acres in 3 days. 60 setups a day is typical.
I know a surveyor who uses a Cadilac Escalade for your survey vehicle.
the $15k is my estiamte for US prices.
if I am going to do a boundary survey for a 270 acre site I would probably cost it at $10k. That is all in.
forgive me but you are talking of boundary survey & not topography survey right?. topography survey takes into account terrain. boundary survey need not traverse every square meter of the 270 acres. you have your crew find the easier way to the site. the control if done via GPS is placed nearest the property corners or as close as estimated anyway.
i have done a lot of topography + boundary survey & in my pricing, the boundary survey is almost "free" if done together with the topography survey. The difficult part really is the monumenting of the corners because you have to haul the cement, water & sand to make the monuments.
if area is swamp then i will inform the client if the corners fall in the water area that I cannot monument something that is waist deep in water. this is not bathymetry survey. what is the use of locating a corner to cm accuracy if no one can see the corner monument?
based on your estimate, your 2 man crew would cost $5000 each/month? that is their full month salary. they won't be working on this single proj for the entire month compute it pro rata. $15k would cover that.
i remember someone on TV was asked:
"Do you get paid the amount you want?"
he answered:
"No, but I get paid the amount that I deserve."
this is business, price it as high as the client is willing to pay & do the job as if you were paid what you asked.
Wow!!
32.5k for 270 acres.
Let there be no misunderstanding that I work in a very rough and rugged place that has high hills, valleys, bluffs, creek bottoms, granite outcrops, flowing creeks and rivers and brush that is just brutal.
But with GPS and conventional capabilities and some good ol fashioned know how, we do these rough surveys all of the time.
I have come close to your number of 32.5k on a much much larger tract (maybe once on a 2000 acre property that would make your skin crawl) and I know every job has its own demons, but that price seems very very high.
That would be at least 25 days of field work and I do not see it unless you need to rent a helicopter to get you to the pack mules that get you to the ox team.
270 acres around here is a small job.
Sorry, but you must not have really wanted this one.
Randy
>
>
> based on your estimate, your 2 man crew would cost $5000 each/month? that is their full month salary. they won't be working on this single proj for the entire month compute it pro rata. $15k would cover that.
>
> i remember someone on TV was asked:
>
> "Do you get paid the amount you want?"
>
> he answered:
>
> "No, but I get paid the amount that I deserve."
>
>
> this is business, price it as high as the client is willing to pay & do the job as if you were paid what you asked.
No, based on my estimate my crew is 4800 a week, not a month. So, 3 weeks in the field from start to finish (14,400). 2 weeks in the office to prepare the survey start to finish, senior PLS 6600 a week, junior PLS 5000 a week, (23,200). so now we are at 37,600. expenses are not even factored in.
$12,000 to research and prepare the plat and notes is just nuts.
Office work only.
Sorry, but I can do that in 2 or 3 days.
Get it if you can, but!!!
Randy
This boundary is approximately 25,000 linear feet. About 4,000 feet runs along a ridge top, about 2,000 runs along a creek. The remainder is over hill and dale to white oaks, black oaks and stones. This property hasn't been surveyed in over 100 years. Here in this part of the world, you don't have the benefit of old field notes and maps like you do in PLSSia. I've surveyed in PLSSia and in GA (which has their own "rectangular" system). Also, except for the ridge top (maybe, depending on cover), you won't be able to use GPS. It is located about 1.5 hrs away, in a part of the state where there aren't any surveyors, or many people for that matter. It is very rugged and rural, in a wildlife management area. You're going to spend a week (at least) out there interviewing adjoining property owners. Whoever does this one isn't going to make any money at $15K. Sorry, I love surveying but I do it to make a living, not to donate my services.
>
> No, based on my estimate my crew is 4800 a week, not a month. So, 3 weeks in the field from start to finish (14,400). 2 weeks in the office to prepare the survey start to finish, senior PLS 6600 a week, junior PLS 5000 a week, (23,200). so now we are at 37,600. expenses are not even factored in.
Those are pretty realistic numbers and might be a little low around here (Although you won't find 270 acres that isn't owned by the City).
Ralph
you have a PLS that gets $26000/month to do office work???!!!
that is a lot. can i apply with you? i have 30 years of experience & I am asking only $15,000/month.
i will do 2x his output. no overtime fee. just provide the coffee!
those rates are quite high. even salaries in the Middle East do not come close to that & those projects in the Middle East are getting the best people with the most experiences.