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oldest working civil boundary stone in america anyone

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(@aletheia-kallos)
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smiles & thanxx don & farsites again too & of course you are quite right about everything

my interest in these boundaries & markers is strictly geopolitical rather than just proprietary cadastral

so until & unless a political boundary has been expressly pinned to a stone wall or some other human artifact
& has remained pinned to it down thru the ages & up to the present
then i would & do indeed completely ignore that artifact & boundary for purposes of this quest

& the only reason i have discounted precolonial stuff so far is that i have not yet been able to connect any of it with actually surviving civil boundaries

if i found an inuksuk mentioned in the delimitation of an alaskan borough boundary
for example
or an ahupuua cairn standing on a modern town line in hawaii
etc etc
then these would definitely get my attention
& i would try to learn when they were erected

for now colonial stuff & specifically british colonial stuff is the best i seem to be able to do
under my admittedly peculiar & self imposed conditions

& i am looking particularly for a dated or at least a documented standing stone pillar rather than just some trace or heap etc
simply because going in this direction permits me a modicum of rigor & consistency

of course various other quests are possible & perhaps even more appealing

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 5:29 am
(@kris-morgan)
Posts: 3876
 

Alethia

While I don't go that far back, I can show you the ONLY known international boundary marker within the CONUS. Beat that! Ha!

🙂

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 10:37 am
(@adamsurveyor)
Posts: 1487
 

Very cool Dan. And a crypto-qoute as well. I was actually waiting for a punch-line when your post was talking about figuring out what it said. But the story itself was much better than if it degenerated into a joke.

Asfiwz pku dkzabiq asta.

Aky

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 10:47 am
(@dave-karoly)
Posts: 12001
 

The Mason-Dixon line (1763 to 1767) is marked with stones and is a State boundary between Pennsylvania (and Delaware) and Maryland (and West Virginia).

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 11:10 am
 ddsm
(@ddsm)
Posts: 2229
 

You are welcome, Tom

The f=A in thanks and the t=A in that was pretty hard...dang ya...lol;-) 😀

DDSM:beer:;-)

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 11:12 am
(@adamsurveyor)
Posts: 1487
 

I always had a typo unless I reviewed it very close. When you create one of those, you almost need to solve it to check it. I did that one very quickly.....sorry, but I knew the master-cryptographer would get it.

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 1:52 pm
(@aletheia-kallos)
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Alethia

well i have actually visited 2 such stone pillars
plus a few earthen mounds that would also qualify
if there could be more than one one&only

& i have tried to disabuse several texans of their nearly official shortsightedness in this regard
but they insist & keep crowing this mistake
so i have given up on them
& for this reason you cant be blamed for thinking it true

but indeed it isnt true in florida alabama mississippi or louisiana

in fact louisiana gets to have it both ways

lucky pierre as usual

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 1:59 pm
(@farsites)
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Alethia - clarify questions up front.

More is now being revealed about what you intended with your original question.
You mean a Geo-Political Boundary?
Ok, if you only ask about "Boundary" then surveyors also consider cadastral boundaries (and those are indeed civil as the laws governing them are subject to local civil nuances; there is indeed an entire field of Boundary Law.

And then the term geo-political. What defines a nation or other political boundary?
Does a county count, does a boundary of some of the first nations of the U.S. and Canada count. Or is there some specific euro-centric defintiion you'd like us to follow? If a settlement is established it is either a self determined people or area, incorporated or unicorporated, or a colony. So while Jamestown in in 1607 did not endure, the settlement of Stadacona i.e. Quebec City) only one year later has. And Quebec City is fuill of early markers. But what of First Nations? While most (and some still endure like Navajo et al) undoubtedly would simply used natural features there are cairns on featureless expanses of land that still coincide with generally accepted traditional nations extents. No wonder the first nations feel the discounting of their history and own foms of civlization as adding more insult to injury. Perhaps the Quebec-ers will as well; and I'm sure that you would not consider Spansih Land Grants as geo-political (even though they represented original patents from the countries commissioning the counquering). No, I guess none of that counts. And if you look into Hawaii you'll find a rather rich history but it will be challenge your defintions.

But as you've further clarified that you are looking for a well defined stone marker with written record that pretty much rejects any notion but a european colonial era marker. Or does it have to extend to the date of first statehood? That could probalby be nailed down quite well, but will be as dull as mud.

The thing about bringing up questions of boundary to surveyors is there better be some pretty clear defintions up front. They can get pretty cranky on matters of boundary.

Best wishes for your quest though.

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 2:42 pm
(@farsites)
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Touche'

Very good.
A little trivia, and of course subject to potential semantic arguments, but the US-Canada Martime border (Georgia Straits BC, San Juan Islands WA, etc) set by arbitration in 1872 (and refined by arbitration again decades later) has not markers on the actual border as it deep in the sea. So the officially recognized markers are sets of triangulation monumnets set along the coast of each country. And those monumnets are well within their respective lands.
Both Canada and the US are recognized as sovereign countries, and while I think Texas seems like a seprate country 🙂 it is not widely recognized as one. Maybe could be someday? 😉

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 3:02 pm
(@aletheia-kallos)
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Alethia - clarify questions up front.

thank you farsites great points all

& to think i actually meant to be clear by saying civil
to distinguish the public bounds from private property lines
when civil was the very word that suggested private property to you all
as distinct from the public communal civil geopolitical territory & boundaries i really meant
& thus caused all the confusion

hilarious
& my humble apologies are long overdue to you all for this
nor would i blame anyone if they did get cranky

&

again
the only reason i am especially looking for a well defined stone marker with written record
is that the mid to early 1600s is about as far back as i have been able to historically trace or project any existing geopolitical boundaries in america

so this is an effect rather than a cause

please understand

as soon as i find any evidence to lead me back into earlier times i will of course continue probing deeper into the past
& certainly without racial or cultural or indeed historical or geographical prejudice or preference
for those are not operative factors here anyway

& i apologize to you personally for having inadvertently misled you to this incorrect conclusion about me & or my quest
& consequently
to suppose i think quebec or navajoland etc etc somehow less american or less considerable than hawaii
etc etc

& thanx once again for the help & good wishes one & all

cheers

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 3:50 pm
(@farsites)
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& cool
we will c what we can find for U 😉

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 6:19 pm
(@farsites)
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Native land conveyances

When land wasn't taken outright, there were actual deed transactions fro mnative lands, somne already marked with boundary walls and marks to entities such as the state of Rhode Island. Some to become boundaries of public (civil) divisions such as towns and rights of way.

There is even a local native term Quassakonkanuck - Rhode Island place name meaning: Stone fence boundary mark; place at the stone wall. I am sure some other native groups had names for thier markers (which by nature were not inmdividual private parcels but rather tribal/communal/civil)

You mnay find some nuggets and inspiration, to look a little beyond the england-only focus, in the following: http://www.archive.org/stream/nspublications05rhoduoft/nspublications05rhoduoft_djvu.txt
Especially sections 20J through 212.

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 6:49 pm
(@aletheia-kallos)
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Native land conveyances

yes thanx
that was an interesting read & potentially very productive

& it points up the multiple difficulty i face in the case of precolonial boundary markers anywhere
of first deciphering such names if they are even available
& then finding the landmarks they may or may not refer to
& next comparing such landmarks to existing boundaries in the hopes that there might be some coincidency & thus continuity
& finally & only if all the above steps are fruitful
then seeking mention of the earliest date at which such a confirmed marker was known to have served as an intertribal or intercommunal boundary point

a lot of hard work against long odds
all just to reach some ultimately hypothetical or estimated inception date

so positive confirmations or at least warm leads from knowledgeable sources might be indispensable for me to have any reasonable hope of success with this

& where can such knowledge be found all in one place
to ascertain even one such 16th century instance that is still functional

quassakonkanuck for example tho very promising has completely eluded me so far
& thats just 1657

on another hand
pettaquamscutt rock which i found ok with no problem
no longer has any boundary connected to it

etc

 
Posted : October 14, 2011 9:50 pm
(@aletheia-kallos)
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well i have learned a few manners overnight & protocols
so in case anyone wanted to follow this convo
i must apologize for having inadvertently jumped threads & ganged replies & committed other blunders which some of you
my dear intended recipients
may not have seen

but in case you dont want a whole tree of this
here is the present state of play in a nutshell

total amateur looking for geopolitical boundary rock

have taken all branches of your advice hereabove & below
&
have written to virginia historical society
have scoured saint augustine online if unsuccessfully for any sign of early political division or distributions
have at least thought about locations where early pueblos & other native communes might have shared actual boundaries
rather than just vague frontiers of separation
& have thought about how to refine & target the potential field of search for most efficient yield of real candidates
the trickiest question because the research branches out in all directions at once

but in the meantime i feel i must return to cape cod
where the 3 or 4 present leading candidates are all standing
so as to select one or another of them
or else some actually older massachusetts rock that has so far eluded me
as the present leader
& the date to be improved upon

recapping & validating the success to date in this day
not just once but continuously
is fairly necessary
if just to know where to focus next

at the moment all indications are between 1644 & 1639

while most plausible present hopes extend to 1630

but i am still hoping to seriously pick dons brain & experience
per his kind offer
to either help pin something down in barnstable or find better in his backyard

& i also hope i am at least back on the main line with you all again now

 
Posted : October 15, 2011 7:35 am
(@aletheia-kallos)
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Alethia

oops georgia actually completes the orgy of 6 states led by louisiana
which enjoy former international boundary markers

the other rock is pictured & described here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellicott%27s_Stone

apologies for any unintended impertinence

i really do love the texas rock & they make a perfect odd couple

 
Posted : October 15, 2011 9:08 am
(@farsites)
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Native land conveyances

I know it is elusive and no firm date can be affixed events from civlizations that were not of our calendar, but one cannot deny that the concept of land conveyance, ownership, and communal land trust did exist in some form before we put our own stamp on the concept. This exercise, if it were about China would be a snap.

I guess nothing really can be verified unless some european was there to doucmented it. I can't argue that. The R.I. historical society might be an interesting resource. But I guiess if the bar is set at written record, then that would be pointless.

 
Posted : October 15, 2011 2:08 pm
(@aletheia-kallos)
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Native land conveyances

yop
if you want the oldest or earliest known example of anything
then you have to make some accommodation to some level of actual knowledge of its date

a possibly earliest known county quadripoint in england for example is first attested in 1086 but mentioned since 969 & inferrable from 772
while another candidate quadricounty point can also be dated to 959 if not perhaps 515
albeit by circumstantial evidence alone in its case

so
which quadripoint is known to be the earlier
& what is its known date
haha

nor is the present quest immune from reaching such a dreadful result

&

the fact that the colonial era arrives later in rhode island than massachusetts or virginia would appear to put rhode island at a corresponding disadvantage in what is potentially the most delicate & difficult aspect of the research

namely
the delving & projecting backwards into prehistory as far as possible
should it become necessary to compare candidates on that level

but even if unnecessary fortuitous random & haphazard etc
any knowledge gained about any candidates including even the most unsuspected dark horses is still knowledge

so yes on reflection i think i would & may yet write the rhode island historical society
just as i have already done its virginia & massachusetts counterparts
if with even less expectation of reward from providence
while at the same time also acknowledging that any fluke of prehistory as it were
any blast from the unexpectedly remote past
could emerge
or rather prove to have survived
in any of the 50 states
from any archeological horizon

for such a highly improbable outcome to occur
no state would be much more likely than any other

& somehow i am not really expecting so surprising an event
& thus am content to ride for now with just the 2 most probable & necessary state historical societies
& then see how it goes from there

 
Posted : October 15, 2011 7:21 pm
(@farsites)
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Native land conveyances

When was America discovered?
Well, without written record we have no verifiable evidence that the natives seen by the early european travellers were not there before them by any appreciable amount, maybe only a week or so. So one could assume, or "prove" there were only humans in the America's since 1491 at best (as some have tried). I suggest others without preconceived ideas should be looking at such questions.
If you only look for what you know for sure, then you will only find what you know for sure. 😉
And I only suggested RI as ther appears to have been research done into the land conveyances and native boundary activities possibly predating the colonials.
How about San Juan Pueto Rico? I am awaiting a rejection of that notion...

 
Posted : October 15, 2011 8:09 pm
(@aletheia-kallos)
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Native land conveyances

haha good one
actually several good ones

& fortunately for me at least
the question of how much credence to give to carbon 14 dating say
or dendrochronology etc
within the full context of archeological method & science
may forever remain moot & irrelevant to my quest
since i havent yet found a single geopolitical boundary marker surviving as such from precolonial times up to the present
whose date of inception i might therefore then need to know or at least estimate

& i dont expect to find any because i really dont suppose any exist
to be perfectly honest

so for now the combined void of my knowledge & expectation trumps any question of or need for epistemology

& if i am ever surprised by the appearance of such a doggedly enduring boundary marker
i might only then have to withhold agreement from your proposition that things cant be fully validated without a contemporaneous written record
even tho it might be a fundamental tenet of boundary survey art & technique

but for now it is convenient as well as pleasing to agree with you wholeheartedly about that delightful idea

as for puerto rico
thats very good too
& i will buy it as the usa tho not necessarily america

& the partidos do appear to have existed since 1580 anyway
& they & their limits may survive in places for all i know
but i doubt there were any original subdivisional demarcations the way there were in massachusetts from the 1630s since the spanish colonials were never big on these

even much later
their subdivisional delimitations were always shifting about & getting reinvented
since they depended less on agreements or tradition than on royal proclamations & reproclamations

&
i hope my reservations tho not amounting to an outright rejection do not completely disappoint you

but it still seems to me at least that the oldest known geopolitical boundary marker in america even including quebec
has been standing somewhere on the bounds of barnstable mass since 1644 if not a few years earlier

is this marker known to me

no
i have never even seen it

nor the original written record of it

in fact i dont even know which of 3 or 4 actual candidate stones might really be the eldest

but thats the kind of knowledge i am presently most interested in gaining
if i cant find knowledge of anything like it that appears older

 
Posted : October 16, 2011 2:57 pm
(@farsites)
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Native land conveyances

tra lala,

i never mentioned carbon dating.
and if pueto rico is not in america either we went to geography lessons oin differnt planets or in different centuries, or is it just more hair splitting.
at any rate i invite you to make that statement loudly in a bar in pueto rico sometime. 😉

aha, the selective logic trumps but doesnt it always, or does it.
for that is the basis for all disagreement thorughout history.
on one hand i grant you the win becuase i guess ther is now way to prove anything of prehistory. and you hold that if something cannot be dated precisiely then it can not have existed before a modern euro tpye hass een it and documented it.

kinda like those markers along the nile. some still in use. there is no evidence that they are older than the date of the first euro visitors.
visit some chinese digs as I have and you may find thar a humbling experience. while our ancestors were padding around in skins and leather, they had such things in places as running water. But must not have existed before 1492 eh?
am wondering if you also belive that the world can not be any older than 6,000 or os years.

You've certainly hobbled your own quest. I therefore predict it will result in an erroneous conclusion.

Good fun though and no hard feelings

 
Posted : October 16, 2011 7:53 pm
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