OHIO surveyors

Yes this has been posted here before. I believe this [msg]227360[/msg] is the most recent summary of the Ohio situation.

I have also suggested that surveyors study the laws and rules governing county and city offices. When those offices violate the law or rules gently call them on it. When you ask them to show you the law/rules they usually can't and don't know how to find what is needed. If you can then show them a copy that defines the conflict the fun begins. Either they start to listen or say that isn't the correct law. They usually still can't find the law they are sure exists and fall back to "We've always done it that way!"

Is it really GIS mappers reviewing your plats? That sure doesn't happen here, I feel for you:-O

Dallas ... I see you've retired.

I retired and let my license go, but lately a friend in southern Ohio ... Hocking County, has asked me to help him with his survey plats.

His county, with no written authority(county regulation), refuses to accept his hand-drawn surveys.

Anyway, for the past 5 weeks, getting approval is a battle royale.

Two survey checkers(working for the auditor), look for completely different things ... they're not on the same page.

My maps get turned down for TWP(with no period), open arrows(they want closed), lines that go through open circle(which I can somewhat understand, but they allow other surveyors to do it), AC.(they want Ac.), arrows that point to, but not "touching", the circle that indicates a pin, the don't allow leader lines with no arrows(although they do for others).

They've disallowed maps because the circles for points weren't large enough ... today they questioned a closed arrow because it looked like it "might", be a little smaller than another arrow.

They've turned maps down because a leader line went over a right-of-way line(the want the "right-of-way", line broken to give the leader line an open way to the item.

They want smaller arrows on leaders for distances on lines. They want the arrows leading to(but not touching), and they won't accept the arrows leading from the points.

They want the legend to state "LEGEND".

The list of things not addressed in the state laws or their regulations go on much further.

Now, I'm beginning to understand that probably 75%(or more), of my frustrations and stress through the last few years of surveying is from all this bullcarap, and the feeling that NOTHING will EVER get approved.

If I add the planning commission into this mix, I get my 100% stress ...100% frustration ... and the pure joy(until lately), of not being involved in surveying.

That "white paper", from the BOR, was nice, but as the troublemaker that made the complaint that generated that thing, I felt it fell short, the board never even sent me a copy and the board never formally informed me that they addressed my complaint.

The copy of the "advisory", I finally got(from other sources), wasn't signed by ANYONE(at the BOR), and in all seriousness, didn't look very official at all.

Hopefully that advisory was sent with a cover letter or something.

Even though I've let my license go, I'm tempted to inform the board of their legal obligation to formally inform me as to how the investigation I requested, was actually resolved.

John Francis

Worse than GIS mappers! In some counties it is CAD or manual drafters. Some of the counties are just starting GIS and a few are hand drafting tax maps. The Ohio Geographically Referenced Information Program (OGRIP) County Profile Results map shows the status of GIS in Ohio's 88 counties.

The county John mentioned has an operating GIS. However, two adjoining counties are not to that stage yet. Ohio Department of Transportation (ODOT) maintains a County Conveyance Information and County Conveyance Links page with links to standards each county adopted to comply with Ohio law. Many of the counties simply say that "Ohio Administrative Code Chapter 4733-37 Standards for Boundary Surveys" shall apply. The people reviewing the deeds and survey drawings may not have the training to understand these requirements. In the past I've known of reference ties to a POB questioned if they included more than one bearing and distance. The fact that these tie lines were cited as being a boundary of another property was totally lost on the reviewer.

The "white paper" to which John makes reference is a May of 2012 The Ohio State Board of Registration for Professional Engineers and Surveyors issued an opinion "Advisory Opinion Regarding the Supervision of Surveying in the County Tax Map Office." That opinion says in part:

>If the county auditor’s staff performs tasks that fall within the definition of surveying, then they must be supervised by a professional surveyor. When decisions are made and direction is given which requires the utilization of special knowledge and skills required of a professional surveyor through education, experience, and examination, then the directions and decisions must be done under the direct supervision of a registered professional surveyor.

The information about this board opinion was included in my October 10, 2013 post linked from my September 04, 2014 post in this threat. Naturally if the P.S. John is working for files a formal complaint he will have even more trouble in that county.

Worse than GIS mappers! In some counties it is CAD or manual drafters.

Yikes!!!

Just what do they review?

Here it's only subdivisions, boundary adjustments, and a few other things like cemeteries and since the county/city are involved, getting roads and all the issues with that I can understand the review.

Records of Survey of existing lands are just filed it's up to the surveyor to get that correct.

Open and closed arrows? That's just abusive. :-@

> Worse than GIS mappers! In some counties it is CAD or manual drafters.
>
> Yikes!!!
>
> Just what do they review?
>
Anything that creates a new parcel or changes the existing description. Quoting from the my 2001 paper, GIS/LIS in Ohio and the NCEES Model Law, cited in many previous posts on this board:
>
>When a tract is split or a new description for an existing tract is presented, if the adopted real property transfer standards include the provisions of section 315.251, the county auditor relies on the county engineer’s opinion of compliance with OAC 4733-37 in determining sufficiency for transfer. The Auditor also must, in compliance with section 5301.25 “. . . require that the name of the person who made the survey appear in the deed.” The real property tax listings and documents for property appraisals, maintained by the county auditor, include the county tax maps.

The laws cited, and linked, are still current and the Ohio Board of Registration opinion mentioned in my previous post to this thread is being ignored in some counties. Keep in mind I have been a strong supporter of establishing GIS as a tool for better government. The problem is the GIS gurus don't know the laws they are required to follow and refuse to be educated. The line above ". . . the county auditor relies on the county engineer’s opinion of compliance with OAC 4733-37 in determining sufficiency for transfer. . ." is quoted directly from Ohio law and blithely ignored by some counties. In other counties the drafters are nominally employees of the county engineer, that work in the county auditors office without the supervision of a professional surveyor as required by the Ohio Board of Registration opinion mentioned in my earlier post.

EDIT: The OGRIP County Profile information I mentioned also includes a map showing "Which office is responsible for GIS maintenance of parcels (linework)?"
The map basically shows which counties are in direct violation of the law. The county John mentioned shows the county engineer's office in charge. The reviewers may be drafters, I wonder how much P.S. supervision they have.

The carrapp doesn't stop

The tax map(GIS), people want my name calls on the survey maps to "exactly", agree with their tax maps ... unless they say otherwise.

I made a number of changes to dispense with the comma between a name and LLC(limited liability corporation) ... MY BAD. I've always pretty much though of LLC to be a type of corporation and the part before the LLC to be the name ... hence a comma.

BUT, at the same time, the want me to change a name(Hocking Co. Commissioners), to Hocking County Commissioners, but their maps actually show "Hocking Co. Comm.".

This after making all the ask-for changes previously.

Now, earlier, they told me that they didn't want the newly required arrows to "touch", any of the indicated pins and such.

So, I pulled the arrows about half between 1/16" and 1/8"(about 1/12"), now I'm being told that the arrows are too far away from the item I'm indicating ... even though the "item", they point to is the only "item", in over about 1-1/2 inches.

I'm no longer licensed ... maybe I shouldn't even care.

BUT seriously, I've been hearing war stories about all of this in many more states than Ohio. War stories about truly insignificant things.

Yet I NEVER hear of ANYONE filing a formal complaint with their BOR!!!!

I can almost envision our profession becoming nothing more than technicians for every whim and want of unlicensed idiots who seem to have their own agenda ... whatever that might be.

Think about it ... these GIS idiots work well within the power structure of the counties, while in many places, the "professional", surveyor is being relegated to being kicked like a dog for someone's perverse thrill.

I'm 64, almost 65 and hope to heeelll, I'm dead and gone before surveyors become completely subservient to these GIS demagogues.

BUT ... In a way, I'd like to stick around to see if there will come a day when the "professional", surveyors will get their proverbial B-lls, and do something to protect their livelihoods as well as protect the public from what I see.

I have identified the problem

One line of my ancestry arrived in the Hocking and Fairfield Counties part of Ohio in the late 1700's. As I have been frequently told I must come from a long line of a$$h01es, you must be dealing with a bunch of my inbred relatives. Obstinate, self-righteous and never wrong.....I think that's what the family crest is supposed to mean.

Someday I hope to wander around certain parts of Ohio checking out ancient cemeteries and the neighboring areas. Studying one's genealogy makes one want to know more about the lifestyles and circumstances of the lives of ancestors.

I have identified the problem

It's beautiful country and the experimentation of the experimentation of the rectangular system.

The people are generally great, but some people ... maybe MANY people cannot handle power without making everyone know they have POWER.

To a degree, I don't blame them for being human, but the people they hold power over(right or wrong), want fairness and a feeling that there are rules they can actually rely on.

The power to arbritarily change or make up rules to frustrate others is an abuse of power they've been given(right or wrong).

When one now considers that the power the exert is also in noncompliance to written laws, it's an even further abuse.

The majority ... great majority, of surveyors only want to get their jobs finished, approved and the needs of their clients met.

They don't want to make waves and they don't want to cause further harm to themselves or their clients ... they just 🙂 'want to get through another workday and to wake up tomorrow.

This undue, unabated abuse of power winds up causing nothing more than stress and frustration ... in my case, I think it, very much in part made almost hate the surveying profession.

By the way, where's the "profession", when unqualified, non-professinal, operatives wind up ... Not only checking our work, but the & additionally wind up telling how to do those things we do under the "guise" of so-called, professionalism.

The fact that it appears "Professional", are either too afraid, or really just don't care, might be another part of my attitude about surveying.

If this trend continues, maybe ... with the coming shortage of "Professional" surveyors, we'll become the technicians for the GIS operatives ... maybe they'll be the "Professionals", and we'll be nothing more than the ditchdiggers of surveying?