Ohio Mortgage "Survey"

Whatever you do, keep copies. And, certify to the BOR what you found, and what is the truth.
Go for it.

N

(N) Fences or other evidence of possession when not in substantial conformance with the legal description.

Well, it is a fence, and is not "in substantial conformance with the legal description".

It can be worse

Once upon a time, all really good stories start out with those four words, I was asked by a neighbor who works for a title/abstract company to look at a drawing submitted to her sister and brother-in-law for a "mortgage" survey of a property they were buying. Technically, this was a mortgagee title inspection prepared by a firm a couple of counties away. The neighbor thought it might have some problems based on her own research. Within a few minutes I was able to note more than five concerns.

The sister told the lender who had chosen the previous survey firm that she was not happy with the results of their work and wanted to use someone else (that would be me). They fussed and fumed but finally relented. We did the job as it should have been done and noted 17 things that had not been discovered by the first crew. Included was a need for the county to vacate a portion of county road that went through the garage and barely missed the house. The existing septic tank, line and field was located on the adjoining property with no record of this being permitted. The description for the tract was grossly inadequate, which was not their fault, but, which should have caused them to suggest a true survey be made rather than a basic mortgagee title inspection. The measurements on the house did not come close to matching what they really were. All in all, an absolutely horrible example of work by professionals.

Prior to relocating to central Ohio in 1986 I had exactly one request, in eastern Ohio, for a Mortgage Survey. Happened when several of the local banks were acquired by larger banks. The local banks had never required these and were suddenly handed a folder full of documents and told every loan required one of these.

Request was for a 100 acre farm and requirements were everything on the then current ALTA form. They informed me the me the most they were willing to pay was $150. They had no idea there was a difference and didn't understand any of the forms or survey terms. A few conversations with other local surveyors indicated we were all getting these requests and most were simply saying I'm not interested.

The local chapter of PLSO arranged a joint meeting inviting loan officers from the banks, real estate agents and attorneys. PLSO members from Columbus and Cleveland attended and presented an educational program on survey types with exhibits of some of their mortgage survey and ALTA plats. Entire experience was positive and the requests for Mortgage Surveys quit for several years.

Once I was in central Ohio the firm I worked for from 1986 until 1991 did many of these. Their procedures and survey quality was acceptable for the intended purpose. Instrument survey with steel tape or edm measurement to all found corners, including front corners of at least 3 lots and any street centerline monuments. Station and offset location from nearest sideline to minimum of three building corners and full dimensions of building and any decks/porches. Same to storage or other out buildings. Experienced crew would be onsite less than two hours and do several of these a day.

I've also been told there are one man "crews" doing these with a screw driver, 200 ft. fiberglass tape, plumb bob and 45 minute time allotment.

[sarcasm]You may expect a bit of a difference in product quality given the difference in procedures.[/sarcasm]

Let's get one thing straight about these . . . "things".

These "things", are not done to the benefit of the landowner, the seller, the buyer or the mortgagee.

The land owner shouldn't even end up with a copy of this ridiculous service.

Sure . . . they pay for it . . . or that is, they pay the mortgage company for it to be done FOR THE MORTGAGE COMPANY . . . for the mortgage company's purposes.

These things never should have been allowed but we have them thanks to compromise.

AND once a client gets a copy of this, regardless of the target of the certification, the clients often make use of it and have other expectations.

A survey, should be a "survey" and a survey should not be a "not a survey".

Let's get one thing straight about these . . . "things".

Did one yesterday, called it a foundation inspection, foundation and floor joists were in place. I recovered the 4 original lot corners, occupied one set zero in the gun and shot the distance of the BS. Then turned to another found monument for a check that what I was using matched the Plat within reason, the BS distance was off a hundredth, the other corner was out about 25 seconds and two hundredths long. Then tied 3 corners of the foundation in order to locate the house location in relation to the Lot exteriors. This is typical of what I do when these things are ordered, sometimes I need to go out further than this, but I do go to where I am comfortable with the tract location. I provide a service I can stand behind, the data shown on the drawing is within a tenth unless a note says otherwise so I move on with no fear of someone getting a copy of my work, what I show is what was there the day I collected the data and a date is included in the title block.
jud

Let's get one thing straight about these . . . "things".

That's what I've said for years. The client shouldn't see these things because most aren't worth the paper their put on and the word "survey" shouldn't be put anywhere near them. The only ones we'll do is when we've down a split on the property and a bank insists on seeing their name on a drawing. Then I just have to change the scale and put their name on a drawing for them. Can't make money on them because they refuse to pay more than the $150 per. You can't go out, recover the corners, locate everything correctly, draw a plat and bill $150. I've got cheap as hell hourly rates through keeping my overhead low but thats less than I charge just to show up.

We had one guy around here that "retired" but still did mortgage surveys. He told one of his old realtor clients he didn't even have a metal detector any more and couldn't come out to locate a pin he'd just set 2 years previously. How the hell do you find pins with no metal decector? God rest his soul because he had to have sleepless nights.

Let's get one thing straight about these . . . "things".

Are there any standards for these in Ohio?

In Kentucky, they are a "Mortgage Inspection" (No use of the word survey) and IF one follows the standards required, they are not too far from being a full blown survey. Again IF the standards are ethically followed, there is a good deal of research and field investigation required before signing off.

I do not know that everyone doing them follows the standards as well as they should be followed. There are many steps in the contract portion that makes it clear to the parties involved of what the product is and is not as well as the options for a complete survey to be performed. Also, the work order (with full disclosure of the services available) is supposed to be signed by the borrower - NOT the lender.

Let's get one thing straight about these . . . "things".

Well I know for a fact that he had a dipneedle . . . God rest his soul

Let's get one thing straight about these . . . "things".

> Are there any standards for these in Ohio?
>
> In Kentucky, they are a "Mortgage Inspection" (No use of the word survey) and IF one follows the standards required, they are not too far from being a full blown survey. Again IF the standards are ethically followed, there is a good deal of research and field investigation required before signing off.
>
> I do not know that everyone doing them follows the standards as well as they should be followed. There are many steps in the contract portion that makes it clear to the parties involved of what the product is and is not as well as the options for a complete survey to be performed. Also, the work order (with full disclosure of the services available) is supposed to be signed by the borrower - NOT the lender.

Yes the standards are in the rules adopted by the registration board, Ohio Administrative Code, Chapter 4733-38 Standards For Mortgage Location Surveys. For small residential lots in a recorded subdivision these are simple requirements. Get to a suburban five acre mini-farm, with above ground telephone and electric, you will spend more time getting it right than the bank wants to pay for.

Let's get one thing straight about these . . . "things".

RETIRED69, you know I didn't think of the dip needle. It may have been too much work but maybe he did.

This is the same guy that my boss called and told him he may want to look at some pins he'd set on a parcel adjoining a large tract we were surveying. We located them and found they were 1.5' N.E. of where he said they should be. He said thanks he'd check them. While topoing the site my crew chief and I watch him pull up, jump out of his car and pull the pins, and then eyeball them back in. Didn't even use a 6' foot rule, just popped them out and pushed them back into the wet ground. We went over and relocated them later in the day, gave the location to our boss. He called up the other surveyor to let him know they were 0.5' off to the N.W. now. He asked our boss if we were going to be out there again and if we were could we just re-set them. He said yes. Us young guys just stared at our boss when he told us what was going on but he said at least they'd be in the right place and if we were carefull they'd still have his caps on them. The other guy did make it out there before we started and walked around with us a bit, said he'd have done it but all his control was gone.

Jon, I think thats my problem with the Mortgage Location Surveys, they require tighter requirements than their getting. We were asked by a local bank to give them a price per MLS and told them that we couldn't because every site is different. The Bank said they undestood but if we changed our minds they were getting them down by a firm 1hr away for $150. I just don't understand how you even send out your lowest paid guy with a robot (even a Total Station and some bi-pods), measure up everything, get your lowestest paid draftsman to draw it and charge $150. They can't be making any money at it.

Let's get one thing straight about these . . . "things".

My work experience was very well-rounded.

I worked for surveyor who used tension pullers, thermometers and kept the chain in shade until being used.

I worked for surveyors who closed horizons.

I worked for surveyors who always started out with an index(not 0 degrees).

I worked for surveyors who would dig where a pin should be to see if the pinfinder would locate the pin after digging 2' deep hole.

I worked for surveyors who did all kinds of wild gyrations to ensure good measurements.

I worked for surveyors who showed almost enough data on maps that "black", seemed to be 50% of the map.

I worked for surveyors who thought a 300' long tape stretched til it tightened and "twanged", guaranteed a "good" measure . . . summer, fall, winter and spring.

I worked for surveyors who would measure over/through shrubs with the tape winding through the shrubs.

I worked for surveyors who would extend 2000' off of a 100' backsite between older pins . . . and take down every line tree on the way.

I thank God for the wide diversity of experience I got. I thank God even more for modeling myself after the more concise, precise and accurate practitioners that I worked for.

GS . . . well, let's say that learning bad and learning "not" to apply the more questionable methodology is "good" teaching too.

I really liked GS. He actually gave me my first glimpse of surveying while I was in college. I'll be forever grateful and I think of GS fondly, very often to this day.

What you say . . . doesn't surprise, but I know others who wouldn't have ever even addressed those pins.

In Florida, the "Mortgage Survey" is a full blown boundary survey although many times you are not provided with a title report to review for encumbrances. So more times than not, they are not shown on the surveys. Around here the simple 1/4 acre platted lot goes for anywhere between $250 and $300. It is very much like a commodity with its price rising and falling depending on supply and demand.

What burns my biscuits, is when a closing deal falls through and some title companies, banks, realtors, buyers, etc. don't feel that there is any obligation to pay you for the survey. So lets say you discover a title problem that makes the property you are surveying unmarketable, the bank rightly doesn't make the loan, the buyer doesn't want it anyway. So as a reward, you don't get paid for discovering the problem that saved their bacon on the deal. Why do we let this happen? What are our professional societies doing about it? Anyone??? Anyone??? Bueller??? Bueller???

Rant off. Thanks for listening.

The Bow Tie Surveyor

Thanks for all of the comments. They make interesting reading.

I think the point I was trying to make was that the mortgage "survey" I mentioned was not only worthless to the buyer, it was actually damaging to the insurability of his purchase for no reason. The law's requirement to show items as "objects of possession" which are obviously never intended to indicate a claim of possession can't be followed blindly by someone who's responsibility is be able to sort that out by inspection.

Suppose someone has small garden plot in their yard, ten or twelve feet from the property line, and puts up a fence around it to keep out rabbits or whatever. They list the property for sale, it sells, and the title company sends out for an "inspection" which results in a drawing which shows the rabbit fence in correct position (OK) but then attaches a leader to it with the statement "fence is not in conformance with legal description". This statement is then repeated in the first line and called a "point of interest". It's not a question of a surveyor discovering a legitimate problem affecting a sale, but of not understanding his responsibility and creating one out of thin air.

The title company sees this and tells the buyer that it indicates that the surveyor did not know whether the fence was on your parcel or the neighbor's and your policy will have additional exceptions added which will pretty much gut it. I am not making this up.

And the surveying profession gets the full blame.

Let's get one thing straight about these . . . "things".

Wow. Work only from the subject deed as provided by the person 'ordering' the inspection. Does not sound wise or useful at all. Also those positional tolerances seem pretty shady for reporting possible issues.

I see why that 'product' could be pretty well useless.

Let's get one thing straight about these . . . "things".

Replying to my own post to add Ohio history background.

I believe the problem is not the title on the document (map/plat/inspection/survey) or the standards adopted by the state. As others have said the service is required by the lending institution and may be misrepresented to the buyer. Because of this the product is seldom reviewed by anyone with knowledge of the MLS standards. Those that cut corners and/or produce a product that is substandard are seldom required to answer for their actions.

Professional Land Surveyors of Ohio worked for several years to get the standards I cited previously in place. Somewhat later a principal of one of the national "survey brokers" located in Ohio was disciplined by the The Ohio Board of Registration for Professional Engineers and Surveyors (Board) based on production of these products. The disciplinary action was based on the fact that the "signing surveyor" allowed his seal to be used in his absence. The Board's action was appealed in the courts and upheld. However, the action addressed only requirements for direct supervision. I am not aware of any disciplinary action relating to a violation of the minimum standards linked in my prior message.

Let's get one thing straight about these . . . "things".

The problem I identified and posted is in your home county.

At this point I don't think it is in the best interest of the public to say that the solution is to simply try to better enforce OAC 4733-38-05. It was written largely by "mortgage surveyors" having a significant financial and political influence in the legislature and PLSO. As you say, there is no record of enforcement except for the most blatant examples plan stamping violations.

The "surveyors" who are attempting to follow it and the title companies which are attempting to understand it appear to be hopelessly lost, to the disadvantage of the public (my post below has more on this).

I am sorry that I have not followed this situation more closely over the years, as it was far outside my area of practice. I am now of the opinion that we need to follow the example of other states, such as Texas, and simply eliminate the "mortgage survey" and replace it with the "boundary survey".

We already have the legal precedent in Ohio, as I understand it, that title companies will not be replacing surveyors with their own non-registered employees who will produce drawings which will be billed to consumers at closing as a "survey".

Let's just repeal OAC 4733-38 completely. I am going to work toward that end and I know it will be an uphill battle against dollars and not sense. We are responsible to the public ahead of title companies and lenders.

Bow Tie Surveyor:

It is expected by many mortgage/title companies that a surveyor "swallows", the cost of a mortgage loan service that indicates anything that would "kill", the deal.

This contrary to law and as I see it produces a conflict of interest between the surveyor, who essentially stands a better chance at profit by not showing things.

It's one thing to use a surveyor who produces a poor quality product(his bad for not adhering to the minimum standards), it's quite another thing to engage the surveyor in a . . . well, an almost kickback sort of scheme, where non-compliance could result in money paid, while strict compliance might result in the money going somewhere(I don't know where), between the "mortgage company's", client, the mortgage company and/or the title company.

Ohio ALWAYS had laws in place that allowed for something similar to a mortgage loan service . . . it was and should be a survey.

If the pins are all in and comply to records, a "simple" survey might suffice.

If pins are displaced, or as often the case, the property was a "kitchen table", survey, which a land-owner could basically do, in most Ohio counties until the 1970's, then a more complete survey would be performed at a higher cost, but a higher valued product for the end-client, who would then be the purchaser.

As it is, the absolute lack of monumentation only means(for the most part), that an abridgement denoting the lack of side distances to the structures be indicated . . . if the expected error(?), would have no effect anyway . . . like a house which is about 150' from the closest line being shown in the middle of a 300' lot with no distances or a plus&minus error given of say about 20'.

One day, in the future, maybe the BOR's of various states will become more aggressive in defining the duties of professional surveyors, and these silly relics of past compromises will disappear.

Bow Tie Surveyor:

:good:
To make it beneficial to not find problems with the boundary in order to get paid should be against the law for professional services. Can you imagine if a house inspector didn't get paid unless the deal went through?

In my opinion, it should be a law that a boundary survey (at least) be performed before a sale is made. I know that will never happen, but that would solve a lot of problems for a lot of different factions. (It would be a higher level of assurance for the lending companies that the property in question is indeed one and the same that they are lending on, It would be a greater level of insurance as to obvious encroachments, it would be a greater level of insurance to the title companies, it would be a greater level of insurance to the purchaser, it would slowly increase the amount of upgraded monument corners in an area to help retracement, and slowly help the cost and time of performing a land survey (with more evidence around, and it would eliminate an incentive for the land surveyor not to find problems with the boundary and/or possible problems to the title which would lead to more title problems being cleared up as well).