If the goal is to disqualify the measurements made by law enforcement, it shouldn't be that hard to get them flustered asking questions like that about PPM's and such, although in an accident scene they're probably irrelevant anyway. Except for the highly professional and scrupulous bunch we have here, you could probably fluster most surveyors with questions about how often their equipment is calibrated and tested.
The thing is that most attorneys I've worked with (maybe all of them) have no idea that there is anything less than perfection in survey measurements. I was asked in a deposition once if my measurements of some building corners and eaves matched the measurements of another surveyor. I made the mistake of answering something like "within an acceptable margin of error" and we spent the next couple of hours (it seemed like) talking about error as if it's a bad thing.
"If the case goes to court, offer your knowledge of measurement theory and survey measurements to challange the accuracy of the data presented. Suggest that the defense ask if all of their measurements are exact. Then suggest that he ask what corrections were made for atmospheric conditions...."
While you’re showing off your naivete, why not explain the difference between a 300 foot skid mark and a 299 foot skid mark for a speed calculation?
Do you have ANY idea what constitutes “accuracy” or “exact” for a Forensic Reconstructionist?
Do you know what is important to map in a Forensic Reconstruction?
On the one hand, I hate to see anything that could be performed by a licensed surveyor going to someone else.
On the other hand, there are many little projects that I have done through the years that definitely did not require an LS. One example is when I shot the distances from tee box to hole for each of the new holes on a completely revamped golf course. Just a local nine-hole basic course, not a PGA-level type of thing.
Steve - Very good points. The very points that will one day lead to the "Resurrection" of our profession. At some point, "they" will realize that "they" need someone to hang the numbers on. Someday "they" will realize that GPS, GIS and Google Earth ain't as easy as "all that".
I'll hopefully be fishing then, but we owe it to all of those good, young surveyors to get things right now...if we've got it in us...and hopefully there will be some good, young surveyors.
> > seriously, how many 'detailed topos' are done routinely by unlicensed field crews? The cop survey crews really don't ruffle my feathers any...
>
>
>
> A PLS does NOT an exclusivity to mapping.
>
> The establishment of boundaries and property limits, YES
>
> But not mapping
>
> MAPPING of crime scenes
> topographic MAPPING, etc
>
> Same thing goes for CONSTRUCTION layout
> One does not have to be PLS
>
> - See geomatics -
> I mean Sheomatics
You do in CA
Good point. Let's get our panties in a wad over ShotLink on the PGA Tour.
I vote for Mike as the official "wet blanket" guy for Beerleg. He certainly knows why all the things we might want to undertake...will fail. Mike, do you ever offer creative suggestions or ideas? Or is everything a trade secret....just saying...
I gave it already.
"...It is one thing to know "your" process, i.e., "surveying" or "gathering". It is quite another thing to know how your process integrates into your client's process..."
If you want to beat someone at their game, know the rules better than they do; learn what it takes to be a Forensic Reconstructionist.
"....do you believe that you are good at what your do?..."
It doesn't matter if you are the best in the world at "your" measurement process; if you don't know how your process integrates into your clients' process, you're just another measurer to them.
Learn to add value to your services. Learn what measurements are important to your clients and WHY they are important.
You will have a tough time trying to get anyone to care if the skid mark is 289.89 feet long, not 300 feet long.
Mike
Touche - Tough love is better than no love.....I guess.
Interesting discussion. We donated our old DOT Highways Topcon TS to the police department so they could do their accident scene surveys.
Here is a link to a good description of what is called a Motor Vehicle Accident Reconstruction Process.
http://www.fig.net/pub/fig2010/papers/fs03c%5Cfs03c_helmricks_4669.pdf
It looks like they have their own procedures to follow and specialized Autocad software. It doesn't really look like things like PPM corrections really come into play.
"It looks like they have their own procedures to follow and specialized Autocad software. It doesn't really look like things like PPM corrections really come into play."
They don't come into play now, but wait until the hot-shot lawyers get involved. When they realize that they can question the technology, they will. Maybe it's not something that we want, maybe it is. The point is, we have to make our market...going forward.
I just hope they did it all from one setup, checked their backsight, didnt incorporate any other geographic information (like aerial)and are willing to certify on their professional liability insurance that the claims made against the defendant are correct.
California DOJ invests in 3D crime-scene laser scanners to support forensic crime scene investigation
http://www.leica-geosystems.us/forensic/press_11.html
"...Spriggs adds, "Most importantly the scan data has been validated for forensic work and passed admissibility hearings in court."..."
In California, there is a licensure exemption:
8730. License Requirement Exemptions
The following persons are not required to be licensed under this chapter:
(d) Any state, county, city, or city and county public safety employee investigating any crime or infraction for the purpose of determining or prosecuting a crime or infraction. This exemption shall not permit a public safety employee to offer
or perform land surveying as defined in Section 8726 for any purpose other than determining or prosecuting a crime or
infraction.
I think as a general rule, most States exempt themselves from their own laws. That is just the way it is.
I suppose that you would need to sort out two differences.
One is an officer using equipment in the pursuit of evidence gathering.
The other would be someone providing these services as a consultant.
Our Highway Patrol have total stations and our country sheriffs department just ordered a new Nikon TS for their accident scene gathering needs. They are only using updated equipment that replaces their wheels and best guess azimuths that they used previously. I would say that, even if ignoring the ppms and things that they have likely improved their gathering many times over.
At our city they still use the wheels and tapes but they always called us when there was an issue of jurisdiction or right of way location. We would located the right of way and gather data and often the traffic engineer would have to check the site triangles and distances. So they called on licensed people when that facet became an issue. I would hope the Highway Patrol and our County do the same thing when faced with something that would impact a case.
Now a consultant might be another issue entirely. I'm not sure how our BOR would interpret that. I do know that when we hire a consultant that they are considered an agent of the city for purposes of ingress/egress and other things. But we have people on staff that are registered Surveyors and Engineers. Think now though, I cannot recall hiring a consultant that was not a PE or PLS.
by Frank Baker , Columbia, SC, Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 21:43 (11 hours, 17 minutes ago) @ cptdent
Dent - A pretty powerful statement there, that surveyors don't understand topographic mapping. I came up in the "cadre" that believed that "if you didn't walk the land, you couldn't draw an accurate representation of said land. I agree, with all of the innovations...aerial, Google 3D and others, it's easier for the office guys to put it together, but there is still nothing like being there.
You work for a large company with a lot of surveyors....you just tune them out? You need to hire some of these Beerleg guys!
That all said, nobody knows data like a seasoned surveyor!
BINGO !! Thank you for making my point!! Mapping, in MANY cases, has nothing to do with being on the ground. That's why most states do not put cartographers under the rules of the State Surveyor Boards!! I have mapped large portions of Laos, Thailand, Viet Nam, Egypt, Iran, Iraq and most parts in between, and have never set foot in those places.
Thanks to little airplanes and stereo plotters, I did not need to go there. Yet my accuracy was good enough for medevacs and artillery. Everything else was coincidental.
The days of engraving tools, scribecoats and peelcoats are gone now and all of that work is done on computer. We can still work off of aerial photography but the norm is the topo data coordinate file. The data collector guys are governewd by the board, and that's fine.
And, psssst, my company is not all that large. And I must contend with several RLS's that insist on calling EVERYTHING we do a "topo". Nomenclature relects knowledge. Know your craft. Know the diferance betwssn a topo and a planimetric job and call it what it is. That way everyone will understand what you actually want. If someone misuses the nomenclature of my craft, I do tend to stop listening and realise I will have to do what the client wants and not what this yoyo is saying. No one will accept surveyors as true professionals until we start acting like one in all phases of our craft.
They seem to be the ultimate button pushers, imo.
The Sheriff's Dept. and the State Police use TS/DCs to collect crime/accident info.
Yes, it is a big step up from the measure wheel and sketch book.
From what I know, talking to them and others, they receive training in the button pushing from the dealer and also the dealer will bring in a local LS (sometimes). But it is all button pushing instruction.
'They will probably move to scanners soon in the future if not already.
As for what Frank is stating about gathering info for a hydraulic study ,imo, I do not think that they are 'trained' to collect that sort of data.
Skid marks, blood spatters, shell casings, chalk body outlines and other assorted features are one thing but making a study of specific hydraulics is another.
I saw a show last yar on one of the cable channels called 48 hrs. It was about murder investigations and reality TV. The police used a scanner and it was very good and a very good application.
Of course, one must consider who is evaluating and processing the field data in the end.
California Law allows it...
PLS Act, Section 8730, Exemption to Licensure
(d) Any state, county, city, or city and county public safety employee investigating any crime or infraction for the purpose of determining or prosecuting a crime or infraction. This exemption shall not permit a public safety employee to offer or perform land surveying as defined in Section 8726 for any purpose other than determining or prosecuting a crime or infraction.
(missed Dennis Hunter's post above - he beat me to the punch)
