For our own work(work that we survey, design and stake) I never show benchmarks or control. Survey monuments are required to be shown, and are. We already know where the control is so there is no need, or requirement, to clutter up the plans with this data. If a contractor needs a BM for his own internal QA/QC on our projects we will gladly supply him our main control points including main NGS benchmark.
I prefer to set control for staking after the project is designed and after the contractor's staging/main work area is determined. We have been burned several times by setting control before construction only to find out half of it will be wiped out day 1 due to any number of factors outside of my control. After this scenario repeated itself several times we started establishing control much later in the process and it's worked great.
If we are providing a topographic survey to others who will then design and presumably stake it I will provide our main control points and pertinent information. All of my work is tied to NGS monuments. This is noted on all of our plans as the Vertical Benchmark with notes to confirm accuracy of onsite control to the NGS benchmark prior to use. I can't tell you how many times a project like this was sent out, lets say in 2008, and wasn't built until 2012. After 4 years of frost upheval our control may not be too accurate.
For DOT work we will definitely set concreted control points 1/2 mile of more outside of the project limits with little to no main onsite control. If you can't use the main control then you can't bid those projects.
alphasurv, post: 362681, member: 1652 wrote: I don't release anything to machine guidance contractors.
We don't either unless it is specifically identified in our contract with the owner. And if it is specified, our cost goes wayyyy up.
Mark Indzeris, post: 362840, member: 1019 wrote: Several issues I think contribute to the lack of Benchmarks on a plan. Design engineers with no practical experience on what a BM is used for. Plans only produced for municipality approval.
Constructability takes a backseat to numerous plan checker wants. I have had apartment complex plans with no dimensions between buildings and/or the boundary and only dims to the setback lines. Also, the designer wants a "clean" drawing, existing topo and planimetrics is turned off in favor of drainage plans, lighting plans, landscape plans, etc. You may get an existing conditions page but it is bare minimum- probably copied from a previous surveyors work done years prior.
This is the situation I run into most often. We'll bid on and win a staking contract. We get sent paper plans. Those plans have no control data or benchmarks shown. We ask for this information. The firm that prepared the plans says, "We don't have that. Ask the original surveyor." The original surveyor states that "providing the control is not part of their contract." And without dimensions to boundaries or other "hard" features, we have no way of establishing either horizontal OR vertical control to stake the project.
I can't think of any municipality or governmental agency here that will approve engineering construction/improvements plans that don't include an existing conditions plan that shows both horizontal & vertical site control.
skwyd, post: 362854, member: 6874 wrote: This is the situation I run into most often. We'll bid on and win a staking contract. We get sent paper plans. Those plans have no control data or benchmarks shown. We ask for this information. The firm that prepared the plans says, "We don't have that. Ask the original surveyor." The original surveyor states that "providing the control is not part of their contract." And without dimensions to boundaries or other "hard" features, we have no way of establishing either horizontal OR vertical control to stake the project.
"Ask the original surveyor." The original surveyor states that "providing the control is not part of their contract."
If a Reistrant told me that they would be in front of the Board before they knew what hit them!
WA-ID Surveyor, post: 362843, member: 6294 wrote: For our own work(work that we survey, design and stake) I never show benchmarks or control. Survey monuments are required to be shown, and are. We already know where the control is so there is no need, or requirement, to clutter up the plans with this data. If a contractor needs a BM for his own internal QA/QC on our projects we will gladly supply him our main control points including main NGS benchmark.
I prefer to set control for staking after the project is designed and after the contractor's staging/main work area is determined. We have been burned several times by setting control before construction only to find out half of it will be wiped out day 1 due to any number of factors outside of my control. After this scenario repeated itself several times we started establishing control much later in the process and it's worked great.
If we are providing a topographic survey to others who will then design and presumably stake it I will provide our main control points and pertinent information. All of my work is tied to NGS monuments. This is noted on all of our plans as the Vertical Benchmark with notes to confirm accuracy of onsite control to the NGS benchmark prior to use. I can't tell you how many times a project like this was sent out, lets say in 2008, and wasn't built until 2012. After 4 years of frost upheval our control may not be too accurate.
For DOT work we will definitely set concreted control points 1/2 mile of more outside of the project limits with little to no main onsite control. If you can't use the main control then you can't bid those projects.
"For DOT work we will definitely set concreted control points 1/2 mile of more outside of the project limits with little to no main onsite control. If you can't use the main control then you can't bid those projects."
Close to ridiculous...
For my residential projects, I now show only one easy-to-find benchmark on the plan, and I even limit what spot elevations I show if they are not absolutely necessary.
I may have half a dozen benchmarks on the site, but I have found that dirt diggers will absolutely refuse to check between them if I show two or more, and I've had them swap the elevations, using the wrong elevation for the benchmark they shot, setting the project too high or too low.
I stopped including spot elevations (like on a garage slab, porch, etc.) when one contractor used that instead of the benchmark.
Never overestimate your audience...
All topos get BM's. I haven't done one in years that wasn't on SPC of some sort. The formula we use is 3 per 2 acres. After all topo is done, the last thing is a level loop of some sort through them, hand kept in a book so that WHEN the contractor says I'm wrong, I produce the paper work where it WAS right when I left. We started using three because if one got beat up, you never could tell which one was wrong.
Sometimes my BM's are the corners or other objects already there. I don't try to reinvent the wheel, but leave a lot of control.
Also, I haven't done a topo in years that the cad file didn't get shipped along with it to the engineer. What they do with it is their business and if I am charged with layout, they give me their file back and I get to verify what, if anything, they molested.
Jim in AZ, post: 362865, member: 249 wrote: "For DOT work we will definitely set concreted control points 1/2 mile of more outside of the project limits with little to no main onsite control. If you can't use the main control then you can't bid those projects."
Close to ridiculous...
How so? We have tried setting internal control and it gets wiped out day 1 of mobilization and demo. Keeping in mind that we never know what the extent of the design will be at the start of our work as we are often doing the work years before the design. Most DOT jobs around here rarely have interesecting roads every half mile. There is no room to set any control within the project area that will last through the demo stage. The only way to make it work, within the paramters of the scope and project, is to set control 1/2 mile +/- each end of the project. We have had zero complaints and we've done plenty. The construction surveyor comes in from our control and sets control where they want it, not some preconceived notion of where I think they want it, and will always have an easy way to bring in new control if it's destroyed.
Jim in AZ, post: 362864, member: 249 wrote: "Ask the original surveyor." The original surveyor states that "providing the control is not part of their contract."
If a Reistrant told me that they would be in front of the Board before they knew what hit them!
I can assure you that is not the case around here. Often, the scope of work is specificially set and predermined prior to an agency putting projects out for QBS selection. If the scope does not identify control, they don't get any control, simple as that.
We try to educate those that put out the scopes but sometimes it falls on deaf ears. What can you do? We're not supplying extra unscoped work for free, that is not a good business model.
WA-ID Surveyor, post: 363085, member: 6294 wrote: I can assure you that is not the case around here. Often, the scope of work is specificially set and predermined prior to an agency putting projects out for QBS selection. If the scope does not identify control, they don't get any control, simple as that.
We try to educate those that put out the scopes but sometimes it falls on deaf ears. What can you do? We're not supplying extra unscoped work for free, that is not a good business model.
"What can you do?"
You can leave some control on the site so that the next surveyor can follow in your footsteps. I've been doing this for about 40 years, never had any complaints. This would be considered common courtesy if not just plain old-fashioned common sense (both of which are sorely lacking in today's world). ALL of the surveyors in my area do this - it ensure the project is built correctly. I guess we feel it is more important that we protect the public than it is to line our pocketbooks.
Jim in AZ, post: 363092, member: 249 wrote: "What can you do?"
You can leave some control on the site so that the next surveyor can follow in your footsteps. I've been doing this for about 40 years, never had any complaints. This would be considered common courtesy if not just plain old-fashioned common sense (both of which are sorely lacking in today's world). ALL of the surveyors in my area do this - it ensure the project is built correctly. I guess we feel it is more important that we protect the public than it is to line our pocketbooks.
I typically find the control that the previous surveyors left (spikes, mag nails, cut + in concrete, etc). The problem is getting the coordinate values of this control so I can determine how it relates to the plans. Without that information, those control points are just random positions.
Happens all the time when out of state consultants hire the chop shops around here. Bit me in the ass recently. My staking contracts now say you must provide me control. We release files to machine control if they pay for the time it takes to get it to them.
