JKinAK, post: 447749, member: 7219 wrote: Have the surveyors come out NOW and set RPs (reference points) for the pad corners and other key point - you help him by transferring the elevations from the RPs to the pad corners, etc. as he needs them. Make sure the RPs get set where they can live without being hit and make sure that they don't get damaged. This should take you right up to final grading.
Where the pad corners are going to be are over 10' low now. Unless they use some mighty tall stakes this isn't going to work.
Drilldo, post: 447776, member: 8604 wrote: Where the pad corners are going to be are over 10' low now. Unless they use some mighty tall stakes this isn't going to work.
They are reference points - they are set where the ground won't be disturbed. There will be two of them one maybe 30' from the corner and the other maybe 60' from the corner (first one beyond the toe of fill 5 or 10' and second one at least 2x as far from the pad corner). Each will be a hub and a lath. Line them up and pull 30' from the first corner and you are at the pad corner.
Each hub will have an elevation and the surveyor will mark on the lath the cut or fill from the hub elevation to finished grade. Say the hub is at 88.0' and FG is is 100.0'. The lath for that hub will be marked F 12.0.
The surveyor does that for each pad corner and you can use a hand level and cloth tape (OR GPS if you want) to get your buddy to FG.
Or just have the surveyor set nails with fill info and you go survey the nails in - add the fill amount to the surveyed elevation and you have points at FG that you can go back to with GPS. It doesn't matter if the nails get buried - you have the coords.
The advantage of RPs is that your buddy can do it without calling you up and it's way faster (for 6 or 8 points) than setting up a base and a rover. RPs are also less prone to error.
The point is: get the surveyor to stake it out BEFORE you move any more dirt - the pad will be in the right place and you won't be on the hook for staking it in the wrong location - which could put a strain on your friendship.
Drilldo, post: 447774, member: 8604 wrote: I get it. I fully understand and admit this is outside of my scope of knowledge and that is why I was asking for help. The first two things about the net zero and us hauling dirt in are water under the bridge. There was no measuring or calculations done on any of that and it was done before he even knew the balance was an issue. Now an engineer and government at some level are involved and a professional plan is in place.
I am not qualified or even thinking of attempting the final grade. It is going to require an official elevation certification for the flood zone, etc. This is early stage preliminary stuff as in he is over 10' off of where he needs to be. Surely my incompetent self can help him get a heck of a lot closer to where he needs to be. The guy cutting down trees with a chainsaw doesn't need to know how mill out a 2x4.
Once I have the data in a correct format to where I can load it things really seem pretty fool proof.
I get an XYZ file that has SPC X,Y and the elevation per the plan.
I set up my RTK on my monument and check their control point to make sure everything jives.
I navigate to a point and the elevation is 3202 and it should be 3214. "Hey buddy you are 12' low here." Pretty simple really once I have the correct information.
Yeah, you got this. Hell, if you didn't have GPS you could do it with a fiberglass tape and a hand level. I do stuff all the time (and for friends) that I would never do for hire, same as you. Part of the joy of not being paid to do something is learning how to do it as you go.
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/10/22/theres-something-you-need-to-know-about-the-rules/
If you do not have CAD then how will you coordinate the points on the ground?
The engineers might have a TIN. They might not have saved one when designing the PAD.
You can scale and calc spots easy enough.
spledeus, post: 447780, member: 3579 wrote: If you do not have CAD then how will you coordinate the points on the ground?
Engineering plans should be complete enough to be calculated and constructed from hard copies.
Very complicated projects have been built prior to CAD.
"Part of the joy of not being paid to do something is learning how to do it as you go."
I'm going to have to write that one down.
[SARCASM]There are not many instances of neighbors who were previously friends suing each other....is there?[/SARCASM]
imaudigger, post: 447785, member: 7286 wrote: Engineering plans should be complete enough to be calculated and constructed from hard copies.
Very complicated projects have been built prior to CAD.
Very great mistakes have been made before and after CAD. However, the OP wants to upload to a DC, so something has to be done. He could scale a grid and calculate elevations at every interval to manually create stakeout points. 15 acres sounds painful when a CAD seat or demo would resolve this in a fraction of the time. Perhaps scaled XY and calculated Z along breaklines would be satisfactory. What will take less work? Getting a TIN from the engineer and reading the instructions on how to stake to a TIN would be the best. Even if the engineer charges for a few hours of compiling TINs to a final TIN (how many engineers actually save the TIN when they calc out a PAD? Likely those who were PLSs first, less likely for others).
I have heard stories of the days when an office would be filled with people running calculations. Then the story of the joyous day when an office got a calculator that could add, subtract, multiply AND divide. I just see the number of mis-calculated curves in the old plans and shudder. Who let them use curves and who thought it was a good idea to not just use tangents...
Drilldo, post: 447774, member: 8604 wrote: . ......The first two things about the net zero and us hauling dirt in are water under the bridge.
.....
You mean water OVER the bridge.
spledeus, post: 447797, member: 3579 wrote: Very great mistakes have been made before and after CAD. However, the OP wants to upload to a DC, so something has to be done. He could scale a grid and calculate elevations at every interval to manually create stakeout points. 15 acres sounds painful when a CAD seat or demo would resolve this in a fraction of the time. Perhaps scaled XY and calculated Z along breaklines would be satisfactory. What will take less work? Getting a TIN from the engineer and reading the instructions on how to stake to a TIN would be the best. Even if the engineer charges for a few hours of compiling TINs to a final TIN (how many engineers actually save the TIN when they calc out a PAD? Likely those who were PLSs first, less likely for others).
I have heard stories of the days when an office would be filled with people running calculations. Then the story of the joyous day when an office got a calculator that could add, subtract, multiply AND divide. I just see the number of mis-calculated curves in the old plans and shudder. Who let them use curves and who thought it was a good idea to not just use tangents...
I get it.
It's my opinion that if something is to be constructed to contours, then the plan sheet should be drawn to a scale that allows accurate scaling. There should be coordinate grid ticks, control points, or some sort of baseline provided on the plan sheet.
Personally if I did not have the ability to work with TIN files, I would (using CAD software):
- Request a full size plan sheet
- Scan the plan sheet.
- Translate/rotate it to the control
- Click away generating stake out points along the contours and spot elevations.
Much faster and more accurate than scaling. I think it's expected that the surveyor will possess some sort of CAD software and basic skills to use it.
That method should be more than accurate enough to meet grade tolerances for dirt contours.
Sure the TIN makes it pretty slick to stake/check grade, but the plans should be sufficient. Don't have CAD or access to a TIN? I guess you better warm up a pot of coffee and grab your pencil and scale stick.
My point was that you don't need the drawing files or the TIN. The plan sheet should be good enough.
Well I have an update. My neighbor had me call the engineering firm to see what they could provide. They said they had a TIN and after doing some reading I found that [REDACTED] which I use daily can import it so we were good to go. I often download DEMs and apply them to point sets and I think the TIN works the same way. The engineers said they needed my neighbor to sign off before providing the data to me so I thought we were good.
A few hours later my neighbor calls back and they wanted $1,000 to provide the TIN. This is after they already charged him 12.5k for the design. Seems like a load of bull to me. What good is the design without a way to implement it?
We are going to try plan B tomorrow. He recently had his property surveyed and the corner pins are fresh and intact. The engineering plat has the corners on it. I am going to go take shots on the corners and then rectify the engineering plat to fit it. Then I can create points along the contour lines and we should be good - at least close enough to do what we need to do.