The original question was: What if you woke up tomorrow and your professional license disappeared through no fault of your own.....just vanished.
I can assure you from experience that it is not a pleasant thing.
It's true. For a period of time, I was not able to perform surveying despite having been licensed for years to do so. Sounds a bit ridiculous, doesn't it? I had not behaved badly or neglected to renew my license on time or any of the other standard reasons for a professional to have their livelihood stripped from them. No. I had my rights taken from me by a select group of surveyors who had decided amongst themselves that anyone licensed as a professional engineer should not be permitted to perform surveys. They slipped this into a State bill rather quietly. Those engineers who learned of this action were provided a brief window during which they could provide documentation proving an adequate amount of actual experience and submitted additional registration fees could receive a license to survey. As this was only published in the official State legislative publication and not broadcast to all licensed engineers by the Board of Technical Professions or any other entity, only a handful of engineers made application during that brief window. Later, the Legislature realized they had goofed and created a new window along with a mailing to all licensed engineers. Meanwhile, many engineers with much experience had to go through the standard testing procedure for surveyors despite having already passed the twenty times tougher professional engineering examination. Nearly all of the licensed engineers who had no practical experience, but, had never provided surveying services anyway for ethical reasons, didn't worry about it. Inadvertantly, due to the lack of notice, many engineers were still performing surveys routinely as they had always done. YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOUR LICENSE TO DO A CERTAIN THING HAS BEEN REMOVED IN ORDER TO BE MOTIVATED TO TURN DOWN SUCH WORK OPPORTUNITIES. I suppose a few hundred people could have lost their engineering licenses because they were still providing surveys after the official date of the action.
What if you woke up tomorrow and you were no longer licensed to perform boundary survey work? You could do topographical, construction staking, GIS and all sorts of other work, just not boundary work. And to top it off, nobody told you that you were not to do boundary work any longer without a second license, double fees, double continuing education requirements, etc. Would you be happy? Would you run around thanking those who created the new restriction?
"Meanwhile, many engineers with much experience had to go through the standard testing procedure for surveyors despite having already passed the twenty times tougher professional engineering examination."
After that statement, you kinda lost my appreciation for your dilemma.
Perhaps keeping abreast with your state professional Engineering/Surveying Associations might have helped you out.
> The original question was: What if you woke up tomorrow and your professional license disappeared through no fault of your own.....just vanished.
>
>
> I can assure you from experience that it is not a pleasant thing.
>
> It's true. For a period of time, I was not able to perform surveying despite having been licensed for years to do so. Sounds a bit ridiculous, doesn't it? I had not behaved badly or neglected to renew my license on time or any of the other standard reasons for a professional to have their livelihood stripped from them. No. I had my rights taken from me by a select group of surveyors who had decided amongst themselves that anyone licensed as a professional engineer should not be permitted to perform surveys. They slipped this into a State bill rather quietly. Those engineers who learned of this action were provided a brief window during which they could provide documentation proving an adequate amount of actual experience and submitted additional registration fees could receive a license to survey. As this was only published in the official State legislative publication and not broadcast to all licensed engineers by the Board of Technical Professions or any other entity, only a handful of engineers made application during that brief window. Later, the Legislature realized they had goofed and created a new window along with a mailing to all licensed engineers. Meanwhile, many engineers with much experience had to go through the standard testing procedure for surveyors despite having already passed the twenty times tougher professional engineering examination. Nearly all of the licensed engineers who had no practical experience, but, had never provided surveying services anyway for ethical reasons, didn't worry about it. Inadvertantly, due to the lack of notice, many engineers were still performing surveys routinely as they had always done. YOU HAVE TO KNOW YOUR LICENSE TO DO A CERTAIN THING HAS BEEN REMOVED IN ORDER TO BE MOTIVATED TO TURN DOWN SUCH WORK OPPORTUNITIES. I suppose a few hundred people could have lost their engineering licenses because they were still providing surveys after the official date of the action.
>
> What if you woke up tomorrow and you were no longer licensed to perform boundary survey work? You could do topographical, construction staking, GIS and all sorts of other work, just not boundary work. And to top it off, nobody told you that you were not to do boundary work any longer without a second license, double fees, double continuing education requirements, etc. Would you be happy? Would you run around thanking those who created the new restriction?
iS THIS A JONE?
Actually, a similar thing happened to Land Surveyors in New York State back in the 1960's.
Originally, an LS was allowed to do what is referred to "minor engineering" (i.e., "design by a land surveyor of roads, drainage, water supply or sanitary sewerage facilities of a minor nature in connection with subdivisions and the extension and inspection thereof..." things which some states still allow i.e.., PA).
At some point, that privilege was taken away, but those who had attained their license prior to the date the new law was passed were allowed to continue.....it was called "the N exemption" after the section of the licensing law that covered the situation. It was widely thought that the NY PE society was behind this, trying to prevent surveyors from performing what they believed were purely engineering tasks.
In any event, as the years went by, the Land Surveyors who held an "N exemption" retired or died off, and soon firms which had been servicing clients for decades had to either farm the work out or partner up with a PE in order to get the tasks done.
I have been told by old timers that the passage of this section (which mysteriously ends with the phrase ".....attesting that he is competent and experienced in the engineering required for design of such facilities appurtenant to subdivisions; or " with no punctuation after the word "or", as if something was "accidentally" left off.) was done in a similar manner to this Florida sub-committee action.
Sean
There is absolutely no comparing the two examinations and the qualifications required to sit for them.
Perhaps 20 percent of the licensed land surveyors and a far smaller percent of the professional engineers belonged to KSLS at the time of the action. Very few out-of-state license holders belong to in-state organizations. The fault was with the Board of Technical Professions who did nothing to inform their licensees. Their excuse was that had not been given specific authority and funding to communicate with the licensees. A couple of years later they started a quarterly newspaper that goes to all licensees in all five professions and is the "official" means of "noticing" us of any changes relevant to matters for which they are responsible.
Even today, after years of continuing education program fee tactics strongly influencing membership (just to get a price break), KSLS still represents a minority of license holders.
Joe
This is no jone or joke or whatever. Imagine this happening in some fashion to you. Serious as a heart attack.
If you lost your license but others keep theirs and you needed a license to do work it would be a problem.
If all licenses where cancelled and you no longer needed a license to do survey work I don't think it would make much difference.
Smart clients would still seek out qualified surveyors. Shoppers would still find cheap services.
Let's face the truth, a client can find a licensed surveyor to do plenty of cheap worthless work. That's part of the problem now, so what difference would no licenses make? If the public was really being protected maybe it would make some sense, but in reality the public is not really being protected, not only from themselves but from the poor cheap work they can get.
Also HD, being an engineer in a surveyors world has been and will continue to be a handicap. The extra schooling doesn't help, neither does the club you're in.
Passing a PE test is 20 times harder???
REALLY ??
Well, I have worked in both fields of the professions of civil engineering and Land Surveying, have taken both exams, and passed both exams. I prefer and practice Land Surveying for the challange and variety of the challenges.
The only thing different about civil engineering is ........you can always pull a standard, a detail or a formula out of a book or use the design software's capabilities to solve the relatively simple calculations for earthwork, drainage and hydraulics, pavements and a few other common, every day problems that come with civil engineering. The rest is good old common sense.
Isn't it funny to consider Land Surveyors the red-haired step-child of engineering, but more than most engineers push off all work related to Land Surveying because they don't understand it and don't want to take the time to.
Consider the difference in the years of experience it takes to be considered a competent and knowledgable Surveyor (by the community as a whole, and by each of us individually) to that of the PE the day he paases his exam.
You must not remember statically indeterminate structures and finite element analysis.
I don't know one engineer that wants to work in the field.
I don't know any surveyors that want to stay in the office all day.
It's just a difference of personalities.
I always thought we complemented each other fairly well. In spite of all the animosity that exists due to those varied personality's.
(the contrary may be shown)
:coffee:
> You must not remember statically indeterminate structures and finite element analysis.
I love the humor in that. Ironically, I learned enough about both of those in the process of getting my degree in Surveying to make me dangerous, mainly because it was bestowed upon me by the college of Civil Engineering. I started out aiming for an EE degree, so I went through a bunch of high end classes I don't use in my surveying career, but I "speak geek", and laughed when I read your comment.
When you wake up in the morning and your profession has closed the door on you, you go fishing.
> "Meanwhile, many engineers with much experience had to go through the standard testing procedure for surveyors despite having already passed the twenty times tougher professional engineering examination."
>
> After that statement, you kinda lost my appreciation for your dilemma.
>
> Perhaps keeping abreast with your state professional Engineering/Surveying Associations might have helped you out.
Kind of lost mine as well. You (Holy Cow) are rating whether or not a person can practice a certain field based on how difficult of math examination they took? Give me a break.
How about how hard the bar exam might be.....if someone rates it a "harder" than the engineer exam shouldan attorney be able to practice engineering?
Maybe I will go start cutting hair at he beauty shop becase I passed the PLS exam and that is a lot harder then the cosmotology exam.
It sound like the engineers who haven't passed a PLS exam shouldn't be able to practice surveying based on your failed "typical" engineer's logic. I have enough of engineer-only PE's who are arrogant and claim they know so much more than a professional land surveyor. Sorry, but I have seldom had to apply "statically indeterminate structures and finite element analysis" to help me determine a boundary line location.
What about Physics for Scientists and Engineers. Yeah the course used to sort out the premed students that have a chance at med school from the ones that don't. That was just great. 50% of the class needed to get and A or kiss med school goodbye. All I needed was a C, hardest grade I ever earned. And it was a full year of applied calculus in that physics course. Thirty some years later makes my head hurt to even think about it!
So why would med students need to excel in Physics? To find out if they have a brain I suppose.
