Tom Adams, post: 413434, member: 7285 wrote: Right. Just a few more lines to convince them, like: "I'm probably one of the smartest surveyors around. You wouldn't believe how much evidence I've seen. I've probably found more evidences than anybody you know".
It's amazing!
JPH, post: 413255, member: 6636 wrote: So glad I don't work in a PLSS state.
I used to think the same until I started reading and thinking about it more.
Then I realized working in M&B states is even worse as EVERY corner should be treated like a center of section, that is, once restored by a surveyor it should be utilized and not 'reinvented' with new math from 'known' points as this just leads to new monuments, pin cushions, confusion, and ultimately 'musical boundary lines' which defeats the purpose of boundaries in the first place.
Dave Karoly, post: 413300, member: 94 wrote: The U.S. has a weird sort of hybrid engineered slash legal boundary system but mostly legal. Engineers are used to setting things up precisely and there are clearly correct and incorrect answers. The legal system is much more gray and subtle than that. This is why foreign surveyors think we are all nuts.
It would be possible to set up a precise cadastre but it would be expensive and I don't think the American public really wants that. The way it is now you can hear-no-evil, see-no-evil for decades, just ignore the boundaries. They don't have to spend any money at all to occupy their property (other than the cost of acquisition). Or at their option they can hire a Surveyor and find out, something, no one is sure what they are finding out.
The argument appears to be old. Justice Cooley wrote about it in 1875 in a concurring opinion and spoke about it to Engineers in 1880. Curt Brown wrote in 1957 that we should stick to surveying record title boundaries and maybe that was the most achievable thing in that time and place (rapidly developing Southern California of the early post war era). At least Surveyors should follow some sort of guidelines or rules but let the Lawyers and Judges deal with "unwritten title transfers." In 1962 he wrote Experts can't testify to the ultimate issue of fact (boundary location) because that is the province of the Jury. No so today, Experts may testify to the ultimate issue of fact.
What I am finding here is times are changing. Courts are relying on our opinions more. It's not like the 19th century were probably a large percentage of Attorneys dealt with real property issues including boundaries. Boundaries is a unique backwater of law not many of them have experience in. Also we no longer live in a young country where new stakes are constantly set and the Judges were attempting to rein in some of the excesses. Many areas no longer have original monuments, only resets and often of unknown origin. The job gets more difficult but I think we can figure it out.
I agree.
Here the only original monuments are some platted R.O.W. monuments and natural monuments and the rare occasional stone wall in a more rural setting.
If we had newer monuments with no origin at most corners then I could deal with that. But when they are so sporadic it gets even more difficult.
A half acre with 5 angles and the only found monument of any kind is a single new pin 2 houses down makes it really tough, sometimes only leaving the record plat as the best evidence to restore the corners.
I wonder how he derives 50% number. He states that it is from his travels and I will presume as a CEU seminar provider and possibly as an attorney for land surveyor disputes.
The 50% is a good number to provoke the reader.
I find it hard to accept. Of course an argument will always have a 50/50 viewpoints as a basis. We can be facetious and say a land surveying argument may have a vast infinite array of viewpoints. But from experience, I don't find this even political split because surveyors have a much broader common ground.
I have been to a Lucas seminar and have read his POB columns. As an attorney, he presents interesting and controversial topics to the table. I have no idea about his survey work past or present. No idea about his attorney work also.
I would imagine if I was a surveyor accused or being sued of doing substandard surveying that he would be an excellent choice for representation. For instance, if Mr.Joe P Stubbin PLS was in court to defend a corner that he set by finding a lone uncalled corner or fence post and going in a cardinal direction and distance of 1320',2640' etc, then Mr. Stubbin wants an attorney like Mr. Lucas. He will read and apply the letter of the law and rules that to justify his client's actions (or inaction). That is the friction that causes the incendiary arguments.
Even in the "so-called metes and bound states" as he states.
Robert Hill, post: 413621, member: 378 wrote: I wonder how he derives 50% number
Reminds me of the old quote, not that I'm claiming it to be the case here.
"Eighty-five percent of all statistics used in arguments are made up on the spot."
Eapls, that was as fine of a sermon as I've heard!
In order to assign a percentage first it is necessary to know what knowledge and education is required of professionals. Knowing law is not just knowing a list of rules, it is knowing how to reason and apply the rules to the facts, I would venture the percentage of Land Surveyors that meet that standard is probably less than 1%; I don't count myself in that group. I am probably better read in legal topics than most and am aware of the reasoning Judges follow, I'm still a student.
If a professional is diligent, follows the prevailing standard practices, and uses standard reference materials then putting them into a mythical 50% group is counterproductive because it fosters an us vs. them mentality.
It would be better to persuade professionals why they need further education. In California the Courts are relying on Land Surveyor opinions more than ever before so if you care about what happens to people caught up in technically correct but legally incorrect boundary opinions maybe more education in the subject is called for. There is definitely a shift here requiring us to step into an enhanced role.
Gotta go.
MightyMoe, post: 413294, member: 700 wrote: Yes, but when every point you set has a connection to government title, and they never, never, ever accept an interior corner "off" the math solution, then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my point being that Lucas didn't have experience surveying it those situations, and getting rid of the book is not about to happen here.
BLM may vary state to state. I've seen the BLM accept some stuff I'd consider very questionable.
LRDay, post: 413698, member: 571 wrote: BLM may vary state to state. I've seen the BLM accept some stuff I'd consider very questionable.
Interior corners? I've had them reject one of mine at an old fence corner to use a #5 prorated rebar 20ft away on the exterior of a section, but I haven't seen interior 1/16ths accepted, if they were off the math
MightyMoe, post: 413775, member: 700 wrote: Interior corners? I've had them reject one of mine at an old fence corner to use a #5 prorated rebar 20ft away on the exterior of a section, but I haven't seen interior 1/16ths accepted, if they were off the math
I'm not saying they are sloppy or don't follow the rules, but they do seem to respect private surveyors work when the private guy has been there before. Maybe I'm just more critical of some private surveyors work.
LRDay, post: 413779, member: 571 wrote: I'm not saying they are sloppy or don't follow the rules, but they do seem to respect private surveyors work when the private guy has been there before. Maybe I'm just more critical of some private surveyors work.
They accept lots of private surveyor's monuments, on the exterior section lines
MightyMoe, post: 413782, member: 700 wrote: They accept lots of private surveyor's monuments, on the exterior section lines
Section corners and quarter corners? I've seen them accepted and some rejected, Usually if rejected there is a good explanation in the notes. I've never been notified that one of mine was rejected (or accepted), but doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
I probably haven't surveyed anywhere close to as much as you have in this arena. So maybe my experience doesn't really reveal what's going on. I don't hear much complaining about the BLM in Utah though. I'd guess they are well respected by the private surveyors I know.
