One thing I've discovered is how long fence post holes persist, even in sandy soils, after the posts are pulled out.
In the photo below, the PVC pipes are in post holes that were found using a tile probe. The soil was quite sandy and the fence that once existed along the line of the post holes had been removed thirty-three years earlier. Thirty-three years later, the post holes had been filled in with loose soil, but hadn't disappeared. The tile probe could easily detect the difference in the loose fill soil and the undisturbed soil around the hold.
Part of the technique to doing this efficiently is to get some idea of the fence post spacing. On this fence, the spacing was approximately 15 ft. They were stingy with how they used good cedar posts in that county. Around Central Texas, a spacing of 8 - 9 ft. is probably most common for cedar posts on wire fences.
Note how the tracks of the pasture road barely visible in the grass still parallel the older fenceline. The point of this is that one shouldn't assume that just because a fence has been pulled up that it's not possible to determine from physical evidence where it had been.
That is a great find. After seeing the new game fence with an older barbed wire fence at the base, what made you start looking 15' off for holes? Parol evidence?
Kent McMillan = Richard Schaut's newest disciple!!!!
[sarcasm]who knew!!!!![/sarcasm] 😛
actually Kent- I think your idea of using the pvc pipes is great- they really do show well in the photographs.
Finding A Fence Does Not Equal Holding A Fence
Plain and simple it is showing confirming evidence.
In fact Kent shows one should not hold a fence, because there may be evidence of other fences.
Paul in PA
> After seeing the new game fence with an older barbed wire fence at the base, what made you start looking 15' off for holes?
Actually, it was much more straight-forward than that. The tract is part of a larger tract originally conveyed in 1913 using a description calling for fences along certain boundaries and their corner posts as the corners of the property. In 1944, the present piece of the larger tract was sold off calling for a fence and its corner posts along the new boundary that severed the piece.
One question was whether the corner post of the fence that the line of post holes heads toward in the photo was most likely in the same position as the corner post called for in the 1944 deed. That was important because the boundaries of the 1944 and 1913 tracts relate to an important answer on an adjacent tract. The line I found the post holes on was very close to what one would project upon the assumption that certain of the present corner posts in the 1979 wire fence perpetuate the positions of the original posts described in the earlier deeds.
The task was to survey about 288 acres to be able to confirm the location of the boundary of the adjacent tract. The original boundary monuments were mostly fence posts, but all of them had been removed in 1979 when the post and wire fence was rebuilt. The normal assumption that the newer fence was a replacement of the original fence was in question because some of it obviously didn't follow the original boundary and a recent survey had concluded (incorrectly) that all of the new fence was about 30 ft. East of the original tract boundary.
Kent McMillan = Richard Schaut's newest disciple!!!!
Ah, how soon we forget! If Richard Schaut were still around to post, he'd be pointing out that the boundary had moved to the newest fence. Actually, since there are now two posts at the corners: a large cedar post placed 33 years ago and a tall pipe post for the 8 ft. fence place a few years ago. I'm sure that Richard would have had an opinion on which was the "new" corner marker.
Kent McMillan = Richard Schaut's newest disciple!!!!
Yes, How DARE you not honor the new boundary as clearly shown by the more modern (and quite tall) fence.. are they keeping gazelles in there or something??
Kent McMillan = Richard Schaut's newest disciple!!!!
> ... are they keeping gazelles in there or something??
Most of the ranches in that area have 8 ft. tall wire mesh fences. They keep the whitetail deer inside so that the rancher can charge some folks from the city big bucks to hunt the good looking specimens he's bred and fed. Some of the breeding bucks are surprisingly valuable animals.
WOW!!!
Those are some mighty big deer on the other side of the fence!:-D
WOW!!!
> Those are some mighty big deer on the other side of the fence!
Believe it or not, some of the white tail deer would be able to jump over a lower fence.
WOW!!!
Was anyone actually claiming the newer fence was the property line?
[sarcasm]don't know why you didn't just dowse for the old post locations.[/sarcasm]
That would have worked just as well as the probe. Much less wear and tear on the shoulder muscles, too.
WOW!!!
> Was anyone actually claiming the newer fence was the property line?
I don't think so. The whole point of the exercise was to find the boundaries of the tract as described in the original conveyance in 1913. The ground position and identity of entire side of the original tract relates to an important question that effects very many boundaries on an adjacent subdivision of thousands of acres made in 1909. Sounds strange, but it's an unusual problem.
That newer fence that had been built so far off the line of the original fence was just an obscuring detail. It of course had absolutely no effect on what was conveyed in 1909 and 1913.
WOW!!!
"That newer fence that had been built so far off the line of the original fence was just an obscuring detail. It of course had absolutely no effect on what was conveyed in 1909 and 1913."
You, of course, say that while sipping Pino Grigio in Austin, as our old friend Richard is banqueting in Heaven.
I guess that doesn't really affect a boundary determination here on Earth, but watch carefully for lightning.
Don
WOW!!!
Richard died? I didn't know that.
WOW!!!
Some time ago.
Kent maintains the discussion, though, so it's as though he were still here with us.
Just kidding, Kent. I admire your work and your approach to life and land surveying.
Don
WOW!!!
> You, of course, say that while sipping Pinot Noir in Austin, as our old friend Richard is banqueting in Heaven.
Actually, Richard was a practitioner of the Bahai faith, which meant that he expected his soul to inhabit eternity at some carefully distance between Heaven and Hell. True.
WOW!!!
> > You, of course, say that while sipping Pinot Noir in Austin, as our old friend Richard is banqueting in Heaven.
>
> Actually, Richard was a practitioner of the Bahai faith, which meant that he expected his soul to inhabit eternity at some carefully distance between Heaven and Hell. True.
Yes that was true about the Bahai faith. Maybe that explains some of the 'artistic' license that was used to determine boundaries up there.
I noticed that you edited the pinot grigio to a pinot noir. Yes, there is no need to take classless insults from anyone. 😉
> [sarcasm]don't know why you didn't just dowse for the old post locations.[/sarcasm]
no need to dowse... one can just talk to old fence posts sort of like being the 'Fence Post Whisperer"
wendell, I can see the cartoon.
A pair of farmers standind around and a surveyor off to the side wiht his head against a fence post with one of the farmer's saying " He says that he is talking to the fence post".