In a previous post, I mentioned that I was banned from three county clerks offices.
To some surveyors practicing in one county, that seems like a death sentence.
It is not, especially if you spend as much time in the clerk's office as I do.
Here some cases where I saw people get banned on the spot:
Attorney talking to the county clerk:
CC: I get your e-mails with call lists (deed books, pages) and just throw them away.
Attorney: I have sent you the call list with a check.
CC: We don't take checks and you have to pull the books.
Attorney: (later returns and pulls the books and makes a copy)
CC: Sir, we make the copies. Please do not come
back to this office.
County clerks are very particular:
Sometimes you have to pull the deed book.
Sometimes you cannot touch the deed book.
Sometimes you can make the copy.
Sometimes you can make the copy, only on the clerk's copier.
Sometimes you can pull the deed book, but not refile it.
Sometimes you have to do everything yourself.
Sometimes you cannot copy from deed books to your laptop.
Sometimes you can use a flash camera, sometimes not.
Sometimes you can use a camera, but no flash.
Sometimes you cannot use any camera.
Sometimes you can use your own copier, sometimes copier are banned.
Sometimes you cannot get a deed copy; order on-line only, no exceptions.
Personally, I have a great relationship with dozens of county clerks throughout Texas.
They appreciate me keeping their books in order and their books returned to the proper
place. They know that I have spent countless hours rearranging plat records in proper
order on my own time. We promote historical preservation also.
I have never been in a courthouse in Texas where you could not pull the books yourself. Half the time I pull the book and shorthand the information I need. If I am going to have to pull a large amount of deeds I generally take a wand scanner or take pictures with my cell phone. I have never had a clerk tell me I couldn't do either. I really don't see the need to contribute to their doughnut fund.
Cy
County Clerk Protocol
I have probably been in the courthouses of everyone of the 77 counties in Oklahoma. Every one is different. There's even at least one county that provides office space and a dedicated copier for the local abstractor. DON'T EVEN think of using that copier...:pinch:
And I have been banned from at least two of them for just being me.
One I was escorted from the courthouse by a Bailiff (Deputy Sheriff) for removing pages from one of the record books for copying. The last county I had been at, they wanted you to prepare your copying material yourself to expedite things. I was threatened with charges for Destroying Public Property...and asked to never come back.
Another County Clerk closed up shop at lunch and made everybody leave for an hour. I think her in-laws owned the only café in town...
As we were walking past her desk to leave I made a remark to another fella that the Clerk "looked like she needed an hour to eat".
Yes she was portly. No I didn't mean for her to hear me. And yes, she was pissed enough to ask the County Assessor (the closest large buck) to come and bar the doorway upon my return.
I've been back to both of those places. Sometimes the Clerk's position changes regularly...
County Clerk Protocol
Hi Paden. A couple of sayings that seem to fit those situations:
"Never bite the hand that feeds you" and the classic "You can draw more flies with honey than vinegar".
These have always worked to my favor. ?.
In Oregon I could almost always get the deeds I needed - free- by calling the title company of my choice and asking for them. Usually asking by tax lot number - readily determined by reference to uniform and on-line state wide tax lot mapping. I'd have my deeds emailed within a half hour of making the phone call most times. In 16 years there I went to the deed room maybe a half dozen times. And that was a lot for an Oregon Surveyor.
Have done research in county offices in both Ohio and West Virginia. There are few that have the same rules as their neighboring county. Often the rules change from recorders office to clerk of courts in the same county. I always start any visit to a new county with asking a series of questions regarding the rules and document indexing. Usually manage to get more help than expected and often have been greeted warmly when I return.
The clerk of courts office is the last resort when recorder's or auditor's chain of title is broken. Have several times found heirs processed wills and did not record deeds for several generations. Informing the current family attorney of the search results also got relayed to the county offices. Next visit to that county was one of the warm welcome outcomes. Most public offices like to correct old problems they did not create.
Never been banned of escorted out. Some clerk's have even trusted me enough to bring over sized stuff to my office for copying.
But in VA & WV every clerk has their own rules. Some expect you to take books apart, make your own copies, keep track of the copies, and pay when you leave.
There are a couple that expect you to leave a list at the end of the day and they will mail you copies in a couple of weeks.
In recent years many clerks are on line so you can research from your office - but not necessarily back to the beginning of the county. And most want to collect $$$ up front.
And every permutation in between can be found. There are no uniform rules.
And in the states I am familiar with we do our own research. I'd estimate that in my career over 99% of my research has been done by me. The only thing we ever get is a Title Commitment for an ALTA - but that does not include adjoiners. And yes, we research adjoiners as well for every survey.
A few things that seem apparent.
#1 The first thing a government employee does when someone from the public breaks protocol is print out a sign and tape it to the wall. People must break protocol often because government offices are full of little signs telling you what you can't do (especially around copier machines)... "do not remove pages from book", "copies to be made by Clerk only", or "no cameras, scanners, or portable copiers allowed"
#2 If you know that each office has different rules, and that they will "ban you" for breaking them, why not ask what the rules are when you first visit a new county office?
#3 Something tells me that to get banned or even escorted out of a public office by law enforcement, you have to be exercising zero restraint. I can envision it now..."Am I being detained officer?" "Your just a bailiff, your not even a real cop!"
Hidalgo County - do not touch any books. Give a deputy clerk the book and page and wait.
Duval County - no scanners, I-phones, or copiers. Took my name and gave it to the county attorney.
I use the title company where I got banned.
I have been through the 'ask for the ground rules' the first visit.
The second answer is question,'Who are you?'
If you want to make friends with county clerks, take the recommendation of one of the attorneys
in the Texas Attorney's office, and send them a certified public information request. I am sure
that puts out the welcome mat.
> ..send them a certified public information request.
Sounds like you have experience with that one.
The problem with a hand scanner is it's a time bomb ready to go off. I am
sure that you have scanned in so many different courthouses, you do not
ask for permission. I was in a courthouse where a deputy clerk approached
a land man and asked what he was doing with his hand scanner. 'Just checking
some deeds'. The county sheriff's office was next door. The conversion got
very intense. The land man who was working for an oil company. He got replaced.
I know of several counties in Texas where I have never seen the county clerk.
In my little corner of the world we have very little problem with this type of thing. There are a few places where they insist on making the copies, yet you can pull out the pages to take to them and then replace the pages yourself. They just don't want your mitts on their copy machine. Everyone else stays out of the way and simply asks you how many copies you made when you are ready to leave. Most will bend over backwards to help you out when you can't find something.
County Clerk Protocol
A title company in west Texas left their large copier at the county clerk's office.
When I worked on a project for the title company's client, a few months past,
and the title company was asked to remove the copier.
I called the title company and asked where their copier was. They got kicked out.
A few pages were misplaced and a deputy clerk called the title company. The
title company said sorry, we do not get to use our copier, you cannot use copies
of the deeds that we paid to make copies of.
