The point of the NY Definition is that it's all encompassing, the question is whether it is enforceable.
Ralph
NY's definition is by far one of the best I've read. It puts no limitation on the myriad of issues a competent Surveyor can Professionally address. The scope and breadth of what encompasses Surveying is clearly the same as it is defined in the rest of the Civilized World, where Surveyors are held in a much higher esteem and aren't viewed as a necessary evil as in the U.S.
Ralph
Well, I'm not sure how much law surveyors are required to know and apply. I do know that Judges in NY are not required to issue independant decisions on land boundaries. It is settled law here that all a Judge need do is agree with a surveyors opinion. One of the cases I was involved in had a decsion all of one sentence long. It went something like - Mr. Frymire says the line is there and I choose to believe him. The other side tried to appeal on this point and appeal was denied.
One never recieves anything more than "just an opinion" when it comes to legal matters. I suppose the same is true for construction stakes. But the difference is the former costs much more to the parties and the public to iron out. The construction mistake might cause more money damages but it is not the battle to find out who is correct over the course of 5-10 years of litigation, finally followed by determining damages. And in construction someone is wrong, insurance or bonding is going to pay.
I'm partial to MI's definition:
(f) “Practice of professional surveying” means providing professional services such as consultation, investigation, testimony, evaluation, planning, mapping, assembling, and interpreting reliable scientific measurements and information relative to the location, size, shape, or physical features of the earth, improvements on the earth, the space above the earth, or any part of the earth, and the utilization and development of these facts and interpretations into an orderly survey map, plan, report, description, or project.
The practice of professional surveying includes all of the following:
(i) Land surveying that is the surveying of an area for its correct determination or description for its
conveyance, or for the establishment or reestablishment of a land boundary and the designing or design
coordination of the plotting of land and the subdivision of land.
(ii) Geodetic surveying that includes surveying for determination of the size and shape of the earth both
horizontally and vertically and the precise positioning of points on the earth utilizing angular and linear
measurements through spatially oriented spherical geometry.
(iii) Utilizing and managing land information systems through establishment of datums and local coordinate systems and points of reference.
(iv) Engineering and architectural surveying for design and construction layout of infrastructure.
(v) Cartographic surveying for making maps, including topographic and hydrographic mapping.
Item iii above is rather laughable, as I don't believe any enforcement against the GIS'ers practicing without a license has ever occurred. But by definition, it certainly could (and probably should). Typically, engineers are the biggest violators of practicing surveying without a license.
where boundaries are is a question of fact and facts is what we do.
I had a Judge more or less do the same thing, "Plaintiff's expert Karoly says the line is here and I agree with him" is pretty much it in a nutshell. It took her a few pages to say it though; it was a case of Summary Judgment which I think partly happened because the other side didn't pay their expert to provide Sworn Declaration so his survey got thrown out and we won sort of by default. His survey was bogus in my opinion anyway and mine was based on the location of the original boundary, not a measurement.
Thanks Butch,
That is also a good one, might even be better than NY's. The issue now is enforcement.
Ralph
Well, I'm not sure how much law surveyors are required to know and apply. I do know that Judges in NY are not required to issue independant decisions on land boundaries. It is settled law here that all a Judge need do is agree with a surveyors opinion. One of the cases I was involved in had a decsion all of one sentence long. It went something like - Mr. Frymire says the line is there and I choose to believe him. The other side tried to appeal on this point and appeal was denied.
Maybe he knew you ;0)
Ralph
Arkansas is somewhere in between...
17-48-101. Definitions.
As used in this chapter:
(1) (A) "Firm" means any form of business entity that offers professional surveying services of its licensed personnel to the public.
(B) "Firm" does not include an individual licensee operating under his or her name.
(2) (A) "Land surveying" means any service comprising the:
(i) Determination of the location of land boundaries and land boundary corners; and
(ii) Preparation of:
(a) Plats showing the shape and areas of tracts of land and their subdivision into smaller tracts;
(b) Plats showing the location of streets, roads, and rights-of-way of tracts to give access to smaller tracts; and
(c) Official plats, or maps, of land thereof in this state.
(B) "Land surveying" does not include the measure of acreage of timber, cotton, rice, or other agricultural crops.
(C) A person practices or offers to practice land surveying who:
(i) Engages in land surveying for others; or
(ii) By verbal claim, sign, letterhead, card, telephone listing, or in any other way represents himself or herself:
(a) To be a professional surveyor; or
(b) As able to perform land surveying in this state;
(3) "Metadata" means a description of the content, ancestry and source, quantity, database schema, and accuracy of digital map data;
(4) "Professional surveyor" means a person who by reason of special knowledge of mathematics, surveying principles and methods, and legal requirements that are acquired by education or practical experience is qualified to engage in the practice of land surveying and surveying measurement certification; and
(5) "Surveying measurement certification" means providing the professional service of certification or sealing of maps, documents, digital files, or other data to verify that the maps, documents, digital files, or other data are authoritative professional determinations based on accepted methods and principles of surveying measurement or analysis representing or listing the following types of surveying measurements:
(A) The configuration or contour of the earth's surface or the position of fixed objects on the earth's surface;
(B) The position or elevation of any survey boundary or control monument or reference point; and
(C) The alignment or elevation of any fixed works embraced within the practice of professional engineering.
DDSM
Dave,
This was a question of law and not a summary judgment (which are also questions of law btw). The point is that the Judge does not need to make their own determination of law. The surveyors determination of the law as applied to the facts can be controlling, even when things go to court. My point is only that surveyors do in fact act as Judges (no quasi about it), whether anybody likes it or not (attorneys sure don't).
Ralph,
No. But he does now (maybe, probably forgot the minute we left with so many other cases on the docket).
And I'm willing to bet you know more boundary law than most attorneys or judges you would meet.
But, what is the reason for the regulation and license? Is it not because we have this power? I agree there are many tasks under the umbrella, but they are all quite different from judicial power.
> Ralph,
>
> No. But he does now (maybe, probably forgot the minute we left with so many other cases on the docket).
>
> And I'm willing to bet you know more boundary law than most attorneys or judges you would meet.
>
> But, what is the reason for the regulation and license? Is it not because we have this power? I agree there are many tasks under the umbrella, but they are all quite different from judicial power.
Hi Duane,
I've learned a great deal from you over the years and really appreciate your willingness to share with us on the various forums. I will have to heed to your first hand experience and the fact that you have a J.D. in Law.:-)
Thanks Again,
Ralph
If surveying was easy, anybody could do it. The problem with most surveyors is that we make it look easy.
We need to toot our own horns. Let 'em know what they got for their money.
> Arkansas is somewhere in between...
>
> 17-48-101. Definitions.
>
> As used in this chapter:
>
> (1) (A) "Firm" means any form of business entity that offers professional surveying services of its licensed personnel to the public.
>
> (B) "Firm" does not include an individual licensee operating under his or her name.
>
> (2) (A) "Land surveying" means any service comprising the:
>
> (i) Determination of the location of land boundaries and land boundary corners; and
>
> (ii) Preparation of:
>
> (a) Plats showing the shape and areas of tracts of land and their subdivision into smaller tracts;
>
> (b) Plats showing the location of streets, roads, and rights-of-way of tracts to give access to smaller tracts; and
>
> (c) Official plats, or maps, of land thereof in this state.
>
> (B) "Land surveying" does not include the measure of acreage of timber, cotton, rice, or other agricultural crops.
>
> (C) A person practices or offers to practice land surveying who:
>
> (i) Engages in land surveying for others; or
>
> (ii) By verbal claim, sign, letterhead, card, telephone listing, or in any other way represents himself or herself:
>
> (a) To be a professional surveyor; or
>
> (b) As able to perform land surveying in this state;
>
> (3) "Metadata" means a description of the content, ancestry and source, quantity, database schema, and accuracy of digital map data;
>
> (4) "Professional surveyor" means a person who by reason of special knowledge of mathematics, surveying principles and methods, and legal requirements that are acquired by education or practical experience is qualified to engage in the practice of land surveying and surveying measurement certification; and
>
> (5) "Surveying measurement certification" means providing the professional service of certification or sealing of maps, documents, digital files, or other data to verify that the maps, documents, digital files, or other data are authoritative professional determinations based on accepted methods and principles of surveying measurement or analysis representing or listing the following types of surveying measurements:
>
> (A) The configuration or contour of the earth's surface or the position of fixed objects on the earth's surface;
>
> (B) The position or elevation of any survey boundary or control monument or reference point; and
>
> (C) The alignment or elevation of any fixed works embraced within the practice of professional engineering.
>
> DDSM
Hi Dan,
That's pretty good also, I've been following Kent's thread on the FEMA issue and posted his dilema:
When the Board finally dropped the complaint I sued Mike Loomis the flood plain manager for slander among other things. This dragged on for almost 1 year with the city of Houston (the chief surveyor Jack Child) producing one lie after another about me costing me 10 of thousands of dollars to address. I finally dropped the suit because I simply ran out of money. The whole thing cost me over 35 thousand dollars. It almost ruined my business. I opened in 92 and this first came up in 97, I had to drop it in 99.
To this day I hold great grudge against the individuals as the house in question now stands 3' higher than any house built before or after. The claim was that I blew the elevation certificate low 1/2 of a foot. It was extraordinarily high already, however I was simply using the correct benchmark as required in the Flood study for Harris County, others had not used the correct one, and this was very embarrassing for the powers that were at the time.
If his case is not a Professional Surveying issue, what is?
Was anybody harmed as a result of incompetence?
Was it a Boundary issue?
Why does Fema require a stamp?
He did his due diligence and got screwed around, this type of stuff happens all the time.
Ralph
Yes I agree with that particularly since by far most boundary surveys don't get litigated.
> And I'm willing to bet you know more boundary law than most attorneys or judges you would meet.
>
> But, what is the reason for the regulation and license? Is it not because we have this power?
Both very True, Mr. Frymire.
>I agree there are many tasks under the umbrella, but they are all quite different from judicial power.
Yes, it's different, but in the case you described, your determination was the judgement, quite literally. And had a party not decided to contest your determination, your survey in effect would have been adhered to as if a ruling by the lowest court of competent jurisdiction.
When the surveyor, in essence says "here's the line", most landowners, happy about it or not, will essentially look at it as "the surveyor said so, so I suppose it's right" and accept your results.
I think you misread my post, based on your response.
But my experience on the other point is that most landowners will question the surveyors results unless they agree with the landowners opinion of where the line is.
And, virtually all attorneys will question the results unless the surveyor agrees with where their client thinks the line is.
>
> Was anybody harmed as a result of incompetence?
> Was it a Boundary issue?
> Why does Fema require a stamp?
> Ralph
From SECTION D of the Elevation Certificate:
This certification is to be signed and sealed by a land surveyor, engineer, or architect authorized by law to certify elevation information.
I certify that the information on this Certificate represents my best efforts to interpret the data available.
I understand that any false statement may be punishable by fine or imprisonment under 18 U.S. Code, Section 1001.
False Defined
"False" is defined in McBride v. People (126 Col. 277, 248 P.2d 725), a 1952 Colorado Supreme Court Decision, as:
"False "denotes an intentional, deliberate, and willful untruth, something beyond mere inaccuracy."
