Licensed v. Unlicensed

How about construction staking? For the most part, these services can be produced with minimal training by button-pushing technicians.

I'm not talking about laying out the World Trade Center or producing large-scale terrain models, those take a lot more knowledge than a parking lot layout or a topo for a landscape plan. An individual offering services beyond their level of expertise leaves themselves open to prosecution whether or not they have a government certificate.

That is a pretty ignorant statement. Under normal circumstances I would have let it fly. But t just goes to demonstrate the need for education in our Profession. Because You've been at it 30 years, so is that 30 years experience? Or 1 years experience 30 times over?

Ralph

If you’ll do the research the real factor for every license is to “Protect the Pubic” from incompetent and/or fraudulent practitioners. Whether you’re a plumber or engineer, it does not matter. I think it is a sad state affairs when the termite inspector charges more than the land surveyor and they’re both licensed for the same underlying reason.

Ralph,

I think Steve plainly said he was not referring to that elite group (I mean that sincerely) of guys who have the expertise to do what you can do.

He's talking about curb staking etc.

Steve,

Regarding licensing, the process has turned loose some fellows on the public who would survey their lands no better than a guy who only knows COGO. But at least it provides some filter.

OH, MIKE

You done went and did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reread what you put in quotes.

Ralph - Please explain the ignorance of my statement. All I'm saying is that certain things that our state laws currently restrict to being performed by licensed surveyors can be done with relative ease with minimal training. Am I wrong?

I think that is the basis for the conception that surveying doesn't need to be regulated. I wouldn't want an untrained person cutting my hair. I would want somebody to do it that has demonstrated an ability to cut hair better than an untrained person. Does that require government involvement? If I decided to buy a pair of scissors and offer haircuts, there would be picket signs outside my shop the next day warning people not to use my services.

OH, MIKE

Definitely a “Freudian” slip as they say.

I apologize to Steve, perhaps I jumped the gun. The point here is that I did some High level precision rail alignment and the work was claimed by a P.E., I did all the comps and wrote all the field procedures based on my training in Surveying Engineering, the P.E. had no clue what I was doing, yet he got paid.That work should fall under auspices of a licensed Land Surveyor with the proper background. If Surveyors don't diversify beyond boundaries we're in deep doodoo. Take the case of GIS, who better than a Surveyor to take the lead. Yet we weren't prepared.

Today, if the contract calls for verifying alignment, as-built locations or any other thing that requires surveying. I'm gonna fight for it.

I'm not trying to blow my own horn, I'm just saying, "The more you learn the more you have to offer".

Ralph

Steve

See the post above.
Ralph

Ralph

No apology necessary. I was prepared for way worse flames than that.

As far as GIS goes, sure surveyors would be better suited for the job than anybody else, but we were too busy doing what we do to get trained in the software and BS it would take to get those contracts, so it is getting done by doofus planners that in most cases I have seen should be criminally liable for waste of taxpayer dollars and misrepresenting critical information.

One of my points I was trying to make is that I am licensed in CA and NV to do the kind of stuff you do but if I tried to do it, I would be as subject to discipline as an unlicensed person would be. I would be operating out of my area of competence.

Ralph

I agree Steve, however I'm not sure I can get a P.E. (maybe I should try). Not that GIS is a big deal (there is a lot of money in it). The only reason I got Licensed was to be able to bid on the Type of work I specialize in.
I have no problem with somebody getting bonded and insured and going out on their own without a License, however how does a bonding company rate an individual or how does an insurance company rate them without a license?
Ralph

What a coincidence. Jeff Lucas talked about this very subject this afternoon.

He said that if we, as surveyors, cannot be trusted to tell the public where their property lines are, they won't need us anymore. We cannot stake their deed and then throw our hands up and say, "I've done my part, let the courts figure it out."

Ralph

In my career, maybe 1% of my clients has asked me if I had any kind of insurance at all. Bonding, what is that?

In the small-scale world I live in, contractors and builders might hire the lowballer once for construction staking job and if they live through that experience, they will go back to a little higher level of expertise the next time.

In my younger days, I considered myself to be a very good construction surveyor. I very rarely cost my boss or myself any money. It required a lot of 3-D awareness and really, basically fear knowing that a mess-up would have severe consequences. Nowadays, I have a crew that I would trust to stake out jobs with the co-ordinates prepared for them in the office and that they would recognize something that doesn't look right but the days of handing a crew a paper set of plans in the morning and expecting a set of stakes by the afternoon are over. That's probably a good thing, but I can't help being a little proud that I was able to do it.

> Ralph - Please explain the ignorance of my statement. All I'm saying is that certain things that our state laws currently restrict to being performed by licensed surveyors can be done with relative ease with minimal training. Am I wrong?
>
> I think that is the basis for the conception that surveying doesn't need to be regulated. I wouldn't want an untrained person cutting my hair. I would want somebody to do it that has demonstrated an ability to cut hair better than an untrained person. Does that require government involvement? If I decided to buy a pair of scissors and offer haircuts, there would be picket signs outside my shop the next day warning people not to use my services.

30 years in the business and you still don't understand why you are licensed. You are licensed to protect the public interest Take Ralph Perez's example. Untrained personnel should not be laying out railroad tracks. That's a public safety thing. Engineers don't do field work, they delegate to a technician who has all the responsibility but none of the authority. As they say it's the blind leading the blind (not in the public interest). Your hair cutting example. People shouldn't have to picket to get a decent haircut. C'mon.

Tommy

That Jeff Lucas is quite a guy. He's right, though. If the public is convinced that licensed surveyors are the go-to people for determining boundaries, that's one of the things that will keep surveying alive. Did you go to one of his seminars, did my name come up? I'm going to go to one of his little talks some day and have a chat with him about some things.

Ralph

I understand your position Steve, you are apparently in a more rural setting so our experiences are totally different. Here where I live everybody has a lawyer and an accountant. I've done both boundary and construction surveys for The Donald himself and countless other people of interest. I was part of a crew that resurveyed the Empire State Building for a refinance. I worked in the original 7 World Trade. Not to brag, just to give you an idea of the environment.
So insurance and bonding are probably the first thing you'll be asked for around these parts.

Ralph

Tommy

We touched briefly, very briefly, on a case about some buddhists today. Something about the names involved rang a bell.

I find myself thinking about the same things Steve.

There are technical aspects to our job and professional aspects. How to best educate the public is a big challenge.

Tommy

Are you kidding me? He's still talking about that? Grrrr.

> If Surveyors don't diversify beyond boundaries we're in deep doodoo. Take the case of GIS, who better than a Surveyor to take the lead. Yet we weren't prepared.
>

I agree with you to an extent here Ralph.

I think we need to walk the tight rope. Keep up with the technology but don't become technicians.

Knowing how to use/operate GIS or a laser scanner isn't going to save us. Knowing how to apply our professional knowledge and experience to enhance the application of technologies will.

The real challenge facing many surveyors is that they don't know how to place a real value on the work they perform. Man-hours worked in the field and office is not reflective of value. Our fees should be based on value to the client, period.

To echo Steve in my own words: How do we convince the public, contractors or others that we are the professional they need?

I can think of no other professional or trade that is qualified to determine boundaries without a trial in court. I do think that many engineers are capable of conducting topographic surveys and construction staking.

In my purview boundary surveying is the sole practice of licensed land surveyors in our nation. In my opinion, boundary work is horribly undervalued.

I expect to see mounting pressure to deregulate licensing... especially in construction. Many surveyors will still be successful in construction work even if licensing boards deregulate topo and layout work; simply because they are very specialized and experienced. Part of being a professional means accepting liability. Sometimes that is the only reason a surveyor is engaged to perform construction layout work.

We probably won't be able to maintain a monopoly by licensure on all the areas of practice we have enjoyed for the last 50-60 years. As a profession we better figure out the difference between technical survey work and professional survey work, and fast.