I can think of no other professional or trade that is qualified to determine boundaries without a trial in court.
That's where we will differ, I don't think you have that authority at all. And I believe that's where the gist of all this deregulation stems from. You see, it seems everybody is grasping for the Cooley dictum and "The Quasi Judicial function" as the reason you're a professional. Where I come from if you are called to testify, you would probably be wise to stick to talking about your measurements (as per Brown Robillard et al "you are an expert measurer"), not citing court cases and challenging lawyers. A surveyor has no legal authority to determine anything. Since most licensed Surveyors are not members of the Bar, they shouldn't be disseminating legal advice.
You can retrace and use your training to form an "Opinion" on where the boundary should be. Is it Binding? Since these things usually go unchallenged, for the most part it usually is.
But by virtue of this attitude you become the red headed step child of the A/E industry, you develop a genuine identity crisis when confronted by lawyers and some become "the pimps and hoes" of the real estate industry, Complaining about drive-by surveying and low-ballers.
So when the discussion came around about Higher Education and trying to put all things survey under an Umbrella, the fear set in and terms like Geomatics became the brunt of all Jokes.
I think that when people look for what's wrong with the profession, the first place to look is in the mirror.
Wasn't it Alabama that tried to pass some legislation equating a category of Surveyor to a Mid-Wife, I think it was some "Country Surveyor" title. This person was to be authorized to do boundary work with no license.
I think it's time to wake up and take a hard look at what it is you want for your chosen Profession, It probably should be something along the lines of inclusion and not exclusion.
Ralph
IMOHO, not so much licensed vs. unlicensed as qualified vs. unqualified.
It is part of pretty much any professional code of ethics not to practice outside the realm of expertise, and I have seen licensed professionals violate that in multiple states, have had to clean up the resulting mess more than once, and more than once in Florida.
I'm a construction guy with a lot of background in boundary, and love boundary work. To me it is real surveying, as opposed to the boredom/panic of construction. As much as I would love to do boundary again, I know two things about working in the Panhandle.
There is no money there, as the lowballers reign supreme, and the attorneys outnumber everyone else by a wide margin.
At one time I was a field guy with aspirations of getting registered, but let that door close.
No problem, will always be a need for a good crew chief, but boy, was I wrong!
My involvement was usually just long enough to get the new guy trained up on the gun and dc, then away they went, usually to another company that hired them as a full blown PC.
What is occurring in Florida was in deed self inflicted, and is the canary in the mine for many other states.
Validating our Qualifications
> IMOHO, not so much licensed vs. unlicensed as qualified vs. unqualified.
I mentioned this last Tuesday night in my "When Were You Last Regulated?" thread.
Validation of our qualifications is what the Public has been conditioned to expect from government. The Public doesn't have a chance to see behind the curtain screening the waste and disorganization of many regulatory agencies and boards. Whether we like it or not, it's time we qualify ourselves in the Public's eye.
Most contractors have already disregarded our qualifications. They hire out-of-work technicians that have never held more than a routine position to layout projects. Upon completion, the contractor has a rubberstamper sign-off the asbuilts.
Although there are many engineers that understand the need for surveyors, there are many that see us as an inconvenience.
Most title agencies, realtors, mortgage brokers, banks, or Harry Homeowners ask one thing when conducting their brief review of our qualifications, usually over the telephone or browsing some flashy website..."How much?" If ABC Surveying charges $125/hr. and Derelict Dan charges $50 for the whole job, Dan gets the job these days.
What work remains for the surveyor will depend on how well we interact with the Public. Validating our qualifications on our own will determine whether we live or die.
Validating our Qualifications
There are numerous posters on this and other bulletin boards that are not registered land surveyors but that does not keep them from voicing their opinions on boundary issues. Some have not been registered for 10 or more years and have not had a continuing education class in the profession in even a longer period of time.
Although that is not a prerequisite to be on this bulletin board, what is written here is certainly a reflection of the profession.
Sure some posters are students and technicians but they probably use some restraint in giving survey advice, not like others.
I agree that registration is for the ultimate protection of the public. This bulletin board is a public forum and we should act accordingly.
I agree, inclusion is the key.
Benjamin Wright surveyed thousands of acres; mapped and "identified" wetlands and geographic features and soil types; and field engineered the Erie Canal. He's called the "Father of Civil Engineering" in America. To me he was Land Surveyor (maybe even a Geomatician). Hundreds of years ago in England surveyors not only measured and mapped land but also which crops were planted where, and how much was planted and harvested.
I think the split of Civil Engineering and Surveying was mainly to accomodate fast and cheap parcel layout during a time of population boom. But needed services have shifted over the past 30 years with increasing need for identification and mapping of natural elements for regulatory boundaries, increasing complex land boundary retracement due to passage of time from original layout, increasing complexity of construction work due to advances in math - science - technology.
The need for expanded housing and office space is not as pressing anymore. Title insurance is the preferred method of protecting the most valuable part of a land transaction. Other insurance or bonding is the most preferred method of protecting against mistakes in constuction.
Surveyors need diversification and a return to their beginnings in order to survive the future. The future seems to be now.
Is the public being protected? I'd say probably not, so there you have it.
You need a license to survey?
You learn something new every day!;-)
Excuse me, I've been drinking sap.
Validating our Qualifications
Some on here actually believe that being registered makes for a good land surveyor?
There are many of us who are not registered and I will put us up against any registered land surveyor for knowledge and experience.
Think about it.
Keith
I can tell you how it's become in my neck-o-the woods. The question has become basically moot. I'm a boundary surveyor. I spent years in construction lay out and performing 'engineering' surveys, and you don't need no stenkin license to do either one. Just take on the liability and go for it if you want to. I just chose to stop doing it because the quality of the people who were following my work just gradually went down. So, my liability kept going up. And so now, the quality of my clients who desire boundary surveys has gone down. Why? On line GIS and the general dumbing down of American society as a whole. When I first got started in the biz surveying people had more respect for their property rights and so more confidence in the person who could show them on the ground, and 'certify' to, where those rights extended. Since on line GIS tax maps with aerial pics have come along they can get on the www, find their property, print it and WALLA!, they have a boundary survey of their property as far as they're concerned. Most of my work now comes from old folks who need to give the kid(s) some land to reduce their tax burden and need to have it platted so as none of them get confused, or those nasty little lines shown as running through their neighbor's house that leads to litle line disputes that don't really exist on the ground.
IMO, the ONLY way this situation will EVER be reversed is if something like a drivers education course for property rights is given to kids during their high school years. Never gonna happen. I grow a lot of food these days.
I never stated a surveyor’s opinion has any binding authority.
I assert that our profession is simply the best qualified to determine, via our professional opinion, property boundaries. What entities do with our opinion is their business. If we aren’t willing to supply a professional opinion on property boundaries we will shortly find ourselves out of work, period.
I never asserted that surveyors should be challenging lawyers.
I assure you that I do not hold an exclusionary view of the profession. I have a Bachelor’s degree in Geomatics and a minor in GIS. I am simply pointing out the pressures we are currently facing and will continue to face. To be cliche, it is what it is.
In court it may be best to wear your “expert measurer hat.” In my opinion if the “expert measurer hat” is the only one you ever wear, you are just a technician.
From “Evidence and Procedures for Boundary Location” Fifth Edition (Robillard, Brown and Wilson)
17-3
Within property-boundary surveying practice there are many workers, each of whom is different in capabilities and personalities. A significant failure is to properly distinguish between technical level work and professional level work and responsibilities. On highway work the engineer in charge has surveyors who make measurements to determine the shape of the ground. The surveyors are merely measuring the ground as it exists and recording the facts as they are. To be sure, the surveyor must have superior ability in knowing how to use instruments and how to make measurements, but these acts are technical in nature and not professional. They do not include road and drainage design, nor do they utilize the measurements they produce.
Again, the engineer may tell surveyors to grade stake a road in accordance with a given plan. Since no design or judgment is involved, it is a purely technical matter. To some engineers, surveyors are technicians who carry out orders. And often surveyors are just that. But the engineer frequently overlooks the fact that a professional property surveyor has both technical attributes and professional attributes.
Respectfully,
Kevin Samuel
Expertly stated.
No Disrespect intended,
But I respectfully disagree.
Now my question to you is, would you quoting Brown, Robillard et al hold up in court?
I have about 30 college credits in legal course, including evidence and procedures and Boundary Control and Legal Principals, and many others. I then realized that para-professional legal status was not what I was after.
In my opinion you or I or any other Licensed Surveyor can only formulate an opinion as to where the boundary belongs, that's it.
To Pigeon Hole yourself in such narrow confines is your choice.
The same trivial trillion dollar international industry which is GIS, is probably the one with the lobbying power to steam roll your assertions.
Stay Tuned
Ralph
It is good to see you posting Ralph.
> No Disrespect intended,
> But I respectfully disagree.
> Now my question to you is, would you quoting Brown, Robillard et al hold up in court?
Depends on the context I suppose. Quoting the books alone doesn't "hold up" to anything. Perhaps referencing authorities on the subject at hand would reinforce the validitiy of your opinion. Courts certainly look to outside materials if they can find no case law on which to base their decision.
>
> I have about 30 college credits in legal course, including evidence and procedures and Boundary Control and Legal Principals, and many others. I then realized that para-professional legal status was not what I was after.
>
My point exactly, there are many areas of expertise in land surveying. I simply suggested that the only area I have found to be strictly defended in statute (until recently) on a national level is boundary surveying.
So is the key to the future to turn our back on boundary surveying and focus on construction work only? I think not.
A more balanced approach is demanded and I think that we will see a division of professional practice being licensed and technical practice falling under a certification program. Time will tell.
> In my opinion you or I or any other Licensed Surveyor can only formulate an opinion as to where the boundary belongs, that's it.
>
I agree 100%.
> To Pigeon Hole yourself in such narrow confines is your choice.
We are ethically bound to only practice within the areas of our expertise.
Are you suggesting that every surveyor needs to become an expert in every area of practice?
>
> The same trivial trillion dollar international industry which is GIS, is probably the one with the lobbying power to steam roll your assertions.
>
> Stay Tuned
The GIS industry certainly is not trivial. Although you be sure to let me know when the first "GIS boundary" holds up in court.
>
> Ralph
Respectfully,
Kevin Samuel
Thanks Roadie!
Ralph
Good points.
I can take someones blood pressure, temperature, heart rate, weight, etc. It required almost no training but does that mean I'm qualified to call myself a nurse or doctor. For some reason the lousy govt. won't let me open up a practice. And why is this? It is because the license requirement like already stated is to protect the public. I maybe able to do some of the simpler tasks of the profession but doesn't mean I understand the whole or that I should go unchecked.
Steve
We have a natural tendency to minimize what we do.
A Civil Engineer explained this to me when I was downplaying what I do. He told me that I do so many things without thinking about them that it seems simple to me. But the ability to know where to stake the curb goes beyond pushing buttons on the magic box.
It is true that some staking tasks are easier than others but they all require some level of knowledge of what the finished product should be and being able to recognize issues with the data spit out by the box.
Steve
Good point and I think we have all seen the results of crews mindlessly staking pre-calced points without standing back and looking at what they have done.
Even if you ask an Attorney some legal question they can only opine about what a Court might decide.
Legal matters are complex and vary quite a bit depending on how the Lawyers pursue their cases and how the Judge runs the trial.
I do the best that I can to retrace the existing boundary by following the evidence. Every boundary on earth is a man made entity and concept defined by laws. There is no way to Survey any boundary without reference to some law or other. If the Attorney asks me for my expert opinion on where and what the boundary is then I will supply it as clearly, logically and understandably as I can. There is no use following a line which is not the boundary. Boundaries are human entities; most can be found, it just takes patience and the willingness to listen to the humans involved (or by reading their Deeds).
So is the key to the future to turn our back on boundary surveying and focus on construction work only? I think not.
Once again it's not about construction work, it's about broadening the definitions.
Are you suggesting that if every surveyor needs to become an expert in every area of practice?
No, see the answer above.
The GIS industry certainly is not trivial. Although you be sure to let me know when the first "GIS boundary" holds up in court.
As I said before button up your seat belt, because what's happening in the recent 3 states is only the beginning.
AS surveyor we can say whatever we want about our value to the public good. The reality as witnessed by the recent occurrences say other wise. If you think the altruistic cause of protecting the Public Boundaries is whats going to keep this profession afloat more power to you.
This discussion is getting circular, so I'm going to bow out of it.
Ralph