Do we really think that the top mathematics minds in high school are going to choose surveying over, say, computer science, engineering, or even something like statistics?
I'm not sure that it's a lack of interest. I'd say it's more of a lack of awareness, compensation, and direction.
Awareness +??.?ÿ How many people have related on this board how they fell into surveying almost by chance??ÿ I know many people got there through their family, but there are only so many family members who will become surveyors.
I spent 4 years as a faculty member at my regional university before needing to get out of the politics of the place.?ÿ I would go visit a tech high school and talk with students visiting campus for career days for recruiting purposes.?ÿ Each year, there were a few more "kids" showing up in surveying classes that had become interested in surveying based on just hearing about it.?ÿ I am far from charismatic (and certainly not so to high school kids), but surveying is not as well known as many other options.
It is up to us, our state organizations, and our national organizations to get the word out there.?ÿ If we can get the younger (I know that is a relative term) surveyors working on this matter, even better.?ÿ As students would be hearing about the profession from someone who is not an old geezer like me.?ÿ PRIME territory for the Young Surveyor's Network to operate in - but even the YSN will need support from the state organizations and I can tell you it was a ridiculous hassle to get some support of YSN going in Kentucky.
@jon-payne The question I have is when was the degree requirement placed in force? I left Ohio at the end of 2004. Their degree requirement went into force in January 2003. When I left there was only one surveyor in SE Ohio younger than me, and I was 50. News I have gotten since is that it is getting difficult to get a surveyor at all.?ÿ
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Personally, I have great difficulty with a degree requirement. From where I have been watching things for years, none of the surveying programs on the BS level are stable. Larry Phipps, who got around a lot more than I did, told me that only the Puerto Rico program was stable and not living on the edge of being canceled.
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Given that salaries for kids with a BS in Surveying are lower than those with a BS in Engineering, the competition is stacked heavily against surveying programs. Yeah, they may get excited about seeing data displayed, and other such game like functions, but when it gets down to brass tacks, they see through the hype and go elsewhere.
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I hired several engineering students for summer employment while I was an Ohio County Engineer. I asked them all if they considered Surveying. None had and I gave them some info that would get them started on their research. Everyone came back and said, no way.
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Degree requirements eventually have baleful effects. Tennessee did away with theirs in jig time. They went to the model they have now and it is much like what Kansas requires now. Bluntly, as I have said for years, the future of the profession lies in the community colleges. That is where NC has placed their bets. The NC General Assembly rejected a degree requirement. They also modified the former structure into one much like the Kansas requirement. NC, though, has many Surveying programs scattered about the state and is in a good position to offer residential classes to most, if not all, of the state.
I started doing land surveying under my PE license as that was allowed and somewhat typical.?ÿ All of the jobs I took on were fairly straight forward boundary jobs.?ÿ Simple work requiring simple equipment.?ÿ I only did this because of living in an area, by choice, with relatively few job opportunities for professional engineers.?ÿ This provided an adequate income for a single father with three young daughters to raise.?ÿ The projects I accepted did not require GPS work, scanning or 3-D drafting and require a couple million dollars of liability insurance.?ÿ Soon I was earning more money than I had at my last engineering job with far less stress and no office politics to endure.
I could have relocated and made a greater annual income at an office job using my engineering skills.?ÿ I chose to stay where I wanted to be and develop a consulting firm providing both engineering and land surveying work.?ÿ This also allowed me the freedom to develop my investments in farming and general real estate.?ÿ That is what has produced my true retirement fund, should I ever decide to retire.
There is no need for an applicant for the land surveying examinations to have a four-year degree.?ÿ The list of courses set out in the Kansas standard now is adequate.?ÿ At least four years of advancing field work and mentoring plus completing those courses should be all that is required to apply for the examinations.
Every field of study has simple work, challenging work and extremely challenging work.?ÿ Few end up specializing in the extremely challenging work.?ÿ Some advance to succeed in the challenging work realm.?ÿ The vast numbers are content with the simple work.?ÿ There is no need to set standards that require preparation for the highest level of work prior to the examination for licensure.
NYS requirements did change but the path does not require a 4-year degree.?ÿ You will at a minimum need some college education.
Some options:
Associates Degree in Surveying (ABET accredited) and testing/experience.
Bachelor's Degree in Surveying (ABET accredited) and testing/experience
Associates Degree or Bachelor's Degree in a related curriculum (Engineering, Math, Science...), and 15 credits of surveying coursework, (Surveying I & II, and two Surveying Law) and testing/experience.
The experience time varies- per option.?ÿ?ÿ
Rich
IMO, the 4 year college education model is a thing of the past. A work-study model makes a lot more sense in today's world.?ÿ?ÿ
The question I have is when was the degree requirement placed in force?
June 2011.
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Degree requirements eventually have baleful effects.
What are the baleful effects and how have these effects been determined??ÿ Do you mean that in terms of surveying only or just the general idea of degrees?
Again, I've not got a hard stance one way or the other, but I have seen many claims about what would happen or the necessity of a degree (from both viewpoints) and yet I've seen very little in the way of studying the actual numbers and results.
Perhaps I'm insulated in my own little environment, but if folks from Tennessee have some analysis of the numbers that show the degree was the problem (as apposed to a political decision), I would love to see that data.?ÿ Especially considering they have a great surveying program over in ETSU.
There is another post where I looked more closely at the numbers for Kentucky to see if I could spot any trends with the number of licensees in relation to pre- and post-degree requirement and found very little evidence that the number of licensees was doing anything other than what had already been anticipated before enacting the requirement - rise before enactment as people rush to get licensed, drop as students matriculate, and then rise again (pretty much back to pre-degree requirement levels).
Given that salaries for kids with a BS in Surveying are lower than those with a BS in Engineering, the competition is stacked heavily against surveying programs.
That is more of a sad commentary on our profession than a degree issue.?ÿ A while back, I think it was Rover83 who pointed out the strangeness of paying field personnel, who are responsible for maintaining and using very expensive equipment and serving as the eyes and ears of the PLS, such low wages.
IMO, the 4 year college education model is a thing of the past. A work-study model makes a lot more sense in today's world.?ÿ?ÿ
Are you talking generally or surveying specifically.?ÿ If generally, I can get on board that idea.
There is no need for an applicant for the land surveying examinations to have a four-year degree....
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Every field of study has simple work, challenging work and extremely challenging work.?ÿ Few end up specializing in the extremely challenging work.?ÿ Some advance to succeed in the challenging work realm.?ÿ The vast numbers are content with the simple work.?ÿ There is no need to set standards that require preparation for the highest level of work prior to the examination for licensure.
The exam itself has not changed significantly.?ÿ But, the pass rate for Kentucky has risen from around 30% pre-degree requirement to over 70% post-degree requirement.?ÿ On the surface, that seems to be a pretty large increase in pass rate based on just requiring a 4-year degree with surveying coursework.
I don't have access to the data, but it would be very interesting to see how that might compare with a state that introduced a 2-year or even just a get these courses pathway.
@thebionicman Do you mean U Idaho??ÿ Ohio had 3 programs, Ohio State, Akron State and U Cincy. Yet, they are having problems getting enough surveyors licensed.
@richardlhardison I think your information on survey programs is outdated. There was a rough patch a few years ago (10?) where a lot of programs were struggling, but all the ones I know about have growing enrollment now (don't know about Ohio).?ÿ
The narrative of engineering graduates making more money is out if date too, at least from my observations. The change in fortunes coincidently (sarcasm) matched the switch to the majority of surveyors having four year degrees.?ÿ
I think we are stuck on the engineers get paid more narrative because of a great feature of the surveying profession. We can live anywhere we want. Engineers need to move to where the high paying jobs are, surveyors can do that too, but surevors also have the option of remaining where they are at lower pay. An option most engineers don't have.
That is changing with more remote work now though...
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My son-in-law whose first degree was in Electrical Engineering is now operating a consulting business out of his home and doing very well.?ÿ He has major clients in Washington, Texas and New York.
@aliquot I haven't seen anything that contradicts what I have seen. YMMV.
Surveyors do not serve the same market Engineers do either. Only the high end market can afford the sort of thing the degree requirement pogues want us to swallow. There was a very good reason why the NC General Assembly rejected a 4 year degree requirement, and it was the people of the state that have to pay the freight. Tennessee saw the same thing and new they had change quickly.
If a state wants to cut the throats of their people, that's their choice. A smart state will not do it.
