Steve, we don't know the facts. We just know where everything is situated on the ground. We don't know where the boundary is. We don't know if the adjointer is encroaching. We don't know how this all happened. I really don't know if as an outsider surveyor we should approach the current owner. I do know it's not my place to fix it. I as a surveyor I would want to know how this came to be. There may never be an answer. One think for sure I don't want to be part of the litigation just to show I'm a surveying prophet. The original poster has taken this on as he opened a can of worms. I say he didn't. He discovered a problem in doing a simple survey.?ÿ
for sure I don't want to be part of the litigation
If somebody doesn't like the "facts" a surveyor discloses, and is probably bound by rules and ethics to disclose to the client, aren't you almost automatically part of the litigation?
Yes and no. In this case the original poster was hired by the buyer to perform a simple lot survey. As it turns out it's not a simple lot survey. He can inform the buyer there are problems in his gathering of his preliminary findings. What right does the buyer have to cleanup the problems? Does the buyer want this problem property so much he's willing to take this adventure on? If he does, does the surveyor want to venture into being part of the solution? But remember it's up to the seller if this action goes forward. What right does the surveyor have to fix this problem for the seller? If he inserts himself into this situation, then he is going to be part of the litigation, to the seller, and the ajoiners. The cost of the litigation will probably be more that the vacation property is worth.
Here's one I didn't do. I was doing a survey for a house building outfit. Went to Vicksburg MS and did my deed research. Could get anything to work on the ground. Went back to the courthouse for more research back to the original patent. Found the original musket barrel at the section corner, and the witness trees. Still couldn't get out the box. I laid all the deeds in order by date. Then one caught my attention. In 1976 a construction company bought a piece of property. And sold a part of it a few years later. That deed didn't fit any thing except to fences that didn't fit anything. The owner of the construction had passed away several year later. But he was a big Mississippi State alumni. I concluded he hired a collage intern for the summer and had him go do a survey to sell off a piece of the property. My guess is the intern located the fences and called them the boundary. I met with the owner wanting a house built. Showed him what I had found. And showed him he was going to build his house on some property he didn't own. He said stop and go home. He'd get another surveyor to get him what he wanted. I could fix it because I wasn't invited to the party.
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Most Attorneys will tell you not to talk to the other side. That's what a deposition is for. You were hired to do a survey not mediate a boundary dispute. Just the facts ma'm just the facts.
You know I think as surveyors we defer to lawyers far too often. It is our job & our duty and it is why we do what we do. I get it that nobody wants to get caught in a sh!t storm of beligerant people but we did not cause the problem we just found it and it is not our fault that the problem exists.
I avoid dealing with beligerant mouthy jerks and as stated previously I have virtually zero tolerance for verbal abuse of any kind, including snide comments or sarcasm, nevertheless if the parties are civil and agreeable to a solution that does not involve know nothing lawyers I feel it is our duty to do our damned job.
If you are not going to follow through on your contracted terms you need to walk away completely.
The issue with this is the original poster is working for a client that has no standing to pursue this issue. All the client and his surveyor can do is cloud the owners title.
I did a survey for a nice couple a few years ago. They were buying property for so much an acre. The owner was selling 9 acres of land. I found all the corners called for in the deed. Part was an old subdivision. The rest was a metes and bounds parcel. 2 different deeds combined. My survey showed 7 acres. The seller wasn't going for the per acre price. Upset my client?ÿseverely. We talked. Buy it or not, you have a good record of survey on the property that will last you a life time, and your children's life time. I looked a couple of years later and found that my client bought the property. My client had no standing to contest the owner. I didn't cloud the title.?ÿ That's not what's going on here.
If you don't like belligerent or snide remarks I'd advise you to stay away from Lawyers.
You did cause the problem because you found it.I see dealing with Attorneys in a battle of wits as fighting an unarmed man. He you stay with what you know "Surveying" they don't have a chance.i just give them a little chuckle when they make their theatrical overtures. Ever look at the degrees Lawyers get previous to going to Law School?
Phlosophy, Archeology, History, Music. They do learn Legal procedures and evidence stature. That's what we defer to them.
Jules, I meant to be replying to Just a Surveyor. This new website is screwed up.
No Skeeter, I do not have to tolerate, condone, acquiesce or just accept rude, crude or socially unacceptable discourse from anyone. I expect to be treated and spoken to as anyone else on the face of this earth wants to be spoken to. Just because someone has a law degree hanging on their wall with additional undergrad degrees in rap music and gardening does not give anyone the green light to disrespect me or you.
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We have a sh!tty job sometimes and I had to deal with it last week when I found the original monument inside a dog pen. The owner had built a dog pen over the corner. After scooping poop inside the pen and doing some digging I found it but that was not after the owner tried to get beligerant with me and acting the ass along with some threats. I promptly called the police.
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And as for the ORIGINAL POSTER I get it, continuing with the survey would mess up a potential sale if he proceeded however it would seem to me that he is in a no win situation because NOW he is knowledgeable of a potentially serious title issue. The potential buyer, any potential buyer, would be adversely affected if he walks away. The seller will likely be harmed if he continues. The seller and the adjoiners will get angry and beligerant. But the ORIGINAL POSTER did not cause the problem. Someone else caused the problem and odds are on the uncooperative neighbor but it is not the fault of the discovering surveyor.
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Could the Radar be held culpable in any way if he ignores this and a new owner has it surveyed only to discover what the Radar knew but ignored at someone else's direction?
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Someone is going to get harmed but it is not Radars fault. I am very conflict averse but as a surveyor I also know we know land surveying law better than most all lawyers.
And another thing.
We are fond of telling people "get it surveyed before you buy it". Well that is exactly what the potential buyer is doing.
Nowhere in our sage advice do we say "get it surveyed before you buy it, UNLESS there is a potential serious title issue & if there is we will shirk our duties and run away like a coward."
What are your duties? I don't think solving the problem is one of them. You've identified the problem, possibly offered a couple of solutions. What else do you have the authority to do?
This isn't a case of finding corner monuments. The survey was poorly done if not fraudulently. My experience has been that pipe or iron pins we're never set in the original survey. Remember it is a 1940's vintage survey. These are challenging surveys where proportioning in corners don't work.
Working in dog shit is very similar it's hard to get rid of.
A respectable Realtor will pull the listing when they learn of potential litigation. That's probably the only redeeming value of using a Realtor. No respectable Title Company will issue title insurance. So unless this is a cash buyer this real estate deal is dead.
Setting the corners will likely spark a true fire, and get Lawyers on notice very quickly.
Why not get the owners together and have them provide parole evidence as where they have acquiesced the property line?
Then draw up a boundary line agreement.?ÿ
As Land Surveyors we have been taught to set the corners, show the encroachments on the Plat, and leave. As Stahl likes to say, tell the client "call someone who cares."
why not suggest a solution? Jog the lot line around the offending cabin maybe. ?ÿUsually on these lake front cabin subdivisions there is a series of cabins along the shore. The subdivision map was an expediency to sell lots, no one cared that much about exactly where the lot lines were located. Everyone just used their perceived area. So make the lots fit their perceived area and meet the zoning code.
who am I kidding? People aren't that reasonable.
Dave Karoly
That is exactly what I would do. This is our job, this is what we get paid the big bucks for (sarcasm off). I have done this before and I have no doubt I will do it again. It does take some diplomacy and letting the affected parties know and truly believe that it is a common situation and it doesn't have to involve arguments in court.
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My experience has been that people dig in their heels and get angry because you discovered what they already knew and they just want you and the problem to go away so they can continue to turn a blind eye to it, an ignorance is bliss sort of thing. But if you can give them a chance to calm down and make them understand that you can make things right with the world and it wont cost a fortune, most times they come around, if you don't force it.
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I guess I see the our role as surveyors different. I kinda like dealing with property disputes so long as the parties are agreeable and not beligerant. I have no interest in letting someone assume hiring a lawyer is their first and only option. If we can keep the parties out of a lawyers office or courthouse then I did a good job.
