How much detail should a survey provide?

34 Years Ago? Hummm?

Did the 1979 surveyor set any corners or find them?

Did the 2003 surveyor set any corners or find them?

Do both surveys have house ties?

Is it possible there was no encroachment 34 years ago?

Were either surveys mere mortgage locations and not boundary surveys?

You seem disappointed that a 1979 survey does not meet your 2013 purposes.

Ten years ago the property owner saw fit not to rely on a 24 year old survey, why should you be disappointed over it now?

Paul in PA

Hello

It depends on the type of survey. If I am out there surveying the property, and I see a potential encroachment, then I locate it and show it on my survey.

Based upon the information, you have a copy of a survey performed in 1979. That survey is 34 years old. Trust me, that is a long time, especially for a survey. A lot of things can and do happen over the course of time. That road that you mention might not have existed at the time of the original survey.

The minimum standards for surveys have gotten more detailed and more strict over the last 15 or 20 years, for many reasons. The value of the land, advances in technology, etc., have made it it more important and easier to collect data while conducting a survey. It is much easier now to collect the data, and show it on the survey.

The dirt road that you mention might have come into existance some time after the survey was performed. This is just a guess on my part.

I hope this information is helpful. Good luck with your endeavors.

If you called my office expecting me to pull a file from when Jimmy Carter was president in order to help you read a multi-generational copy you had, I'd tell you that the file no longer exists. I don't mind helping people, but that would be stretching the limits of my willingness to help. We're not the public library.

Obviously, from the other posts, you can see there there are numerous reasons that things might be different now than before. Hopefully the more recent surveyor had a copy of the older survey and is accepting the same monuments if he found them.

In answer to your question, it would probably be standard practice to show encroachments on a boundary survey. Also, as someone else mentioned, was the older survey an actual "boundary survey"? These animals called "mortgage inspection" surveys are, in many states, not even considered a boundary survey. You called the older survey "original" survey (if I remember right). Is there a reason that you label it that way? is it a subdivision plat, or some kind of survey that first split a smaller parcel out of a larger one?

You need to share more information in order to get a more specific answer.

In answer to your question, it would probably be standard practice to show encroachments on a boundary survey.

So if it is normally done it's possible the road was not there in 1979. Fine.

Also, as someone else mentioned, was the older survey an actual "boundary survey"?

Well, it has markings for IP and "stone pile" and footage between each corner and the compass setting to get from one marking to the other. What is that called?

You called the older survey "original" survey (if I remember right). Is there a reason that you label it that way?

I called it "original" since it is the oldest we could locate in the town hall. The surveyor may have had access to others but since he has not, as yet, called me back I cannot ask him what he has or knows.

Appreciate the help and input.

You're asking all of the wrong questions...

You're asking all of the wrong questions...

You should be asking, "How much should I rely on a survey from 34 years ago that was prepared for someone other than me?"

We have standards we meet, both professional and internal. We always strive to meet the professional standard of the day (which is not nearly the same as it was 34 years ago). Generally we strive to meet our own internal company standards, unless the client's needs specifically don't require them. For instance, we generally map all improvements to a property when we survey it. But, if the client is only needing the boundaries located, then we might not bother with locating the improvements, thereby meeting their needs more quickly and at less expense. There is no professional standard to locate improvements on every survey, so we're still able to meet our professional standard, we've just deviated from our own internal standard with the consent of our client.

Now, consider the surveyor from '79 had some sort of arrangement like that with his client (which apparently is not you). Now, 34 years later, you're exasperated that he didn't meet some perceived standard you've established. Furthermore, as others have mentioned, the disposition of the dirt road at the time (maybe it was not understood at the time to be an encroachment or easement), or its very existence (was it even there 34 years ago?) is in question. I might not call you back either, you kind of sound like an easily agitated, something-for-nothing type. I've got more profitable clients that are more enjoyable to work for.

> So if it is normally done it's possible the road was not there in 1979. Fine.

It's certainly possible.

> Well, it has markings for IP and "stone pile" and footage between each corner and the compass setting to get from one marking to the other. What is that called?

Sounds like it was (a boundary survey). We know that these "mortgage surveys" are often called boundary surveys by the clients, and that is why the question came up.

> I called it "original" since it is the oldest we could locate in the town hall. The surveyor may have had access to others but since he has not, as yet, called me back I cannot ask him what he has or knows.

There are different considerations for what is an "original survey". I think that most surveyors would agree that a survey referenced in the first or original deed that broke out that parcel would be an original survey. If there is a survey that was not referenced on the original deed, and came later trying to show the calls on the deed, some would consider "original" and others might consider it the "first" survey but not "original". You may well have either of those scenarios. The next surveyor down the line would be looking for those calls in the older or original plats and the calls in the original deed. Someone asked you this already, but the surveyor that the other person has, does it show where they found any of those older property markers? Do the bearings and distances on the latter survey match the original calls verbatim?

You are describing things land surveyors run across a lot. We often try to trace the deed-work back to the original deed. We search for evidence of the original and subsequent surveys, and we often find discrepancies that we have to resolve by a preponderance of the evidence, and figuring out what most likely went wrong.

Regardless of whether that road was there in the first survey or not, your current best evidence of where the properties are is most likely the more recent survey and the known marks in the ground. Accepting that as the most likely corners, is probably the least expensive alternative you have. You could hire your own surveyor to try to definitively define your corners; but if they don't agree with the existing survey you have that might cause even more problems or even taking it to court.

I hope that helps a little bit.

You're asking all of the wrong questions...

>...Now, 34 years later, you're exasperated that he didn't meet some perceived standard you've established.... I might not call you back either, you kind of sound like an easily agitated, something-for-nothing type. I've got more profitable clients that are more enjoyable to work for.

It's interesting how some of the professionals on this site are more than willing to help someone with much less knowledge of their profession without name calling or second guessing another persons intentions.

Then there are those just like you.

You're asking all of the wrong questions...

sorry for your bad experience. some possible reasons are:

first, there are huge regional differences in terms used here... and without knowing where you are (city, county, state) it is mostly wild guessing.

second... this site, and others, get a huge number of posts by trolls. Some even argue with themselves. and there are a fair number of grouchy old farts too.

enjoy!

You're asking all of the wrong questions...

Here is the best free advice you're going to get from this thread:

Hire a surveyor to survey this property.

Point is you need to order your own survey . Surveyors work for the client who ordered the survey , he has no obligation to give you anything. What you should be asking for is a new survey from him . If you called my office I would not give you the survey nor do I give them to real estate agents . Your asking for something for nothing ..

A property purchase is one the most important investments you can make , treat it as such . get a new survey, a lot can happen in 30 or 10 years.

I

I had a woman call me yesterday. We had surveyed her 5 acre tract as part of a subdivision 5 or 6 years ago, for the previous owner. She was going to build a house and there was some confusion about where he property line is. I told her that I could probably put a few stakes on that line for $500. She had the gall to tell me that she didn't have the money to pay for that, and she'd go ahead and build the house anyway.

You're asking all of the wrong questions...

Limits on giving someone the benefit of the doubt, some reach those limits quicker than others because of experience.
jud

You're asking all of the wrong questions...

:good:

i've read many of these threads and a true land baron would know the value of a good survey. he or she would also be well aware that in the past surveys met lower standards; just like houses, cars, bicycles, electronics, and anything else that is now regulated.

you know that famous architect who built falling waters? did you know that a few years ago they had a team of industry expert structural engineers keep it from falling over the waterfall? nobody went back to wright to say he did it wrong; they realized that the standards of the day did not meet the needs of today and they solved the problem.

hey, there's a pinto for sale down the road. do you want to buy it and contact ford to talk about the dangerous gas tank? no, you perform your due diligence and don't buy the car that might explode.

so there is an old dirt road that was missed or did not exist. hire a surveyor to locate it, determine the date it was constructed, hire a lawyer to determine if there are any legal rights to it, contact the parties with potential or actual rights, fix the situation in the best way possible for both parties, move on to the next problem. alternatively fight it in court for the next few years and make an enemy of a neighbor. then when you proceed to develop this property you will find out how much of a PIA an enemy neighbor can be.

Most of our surveys are the bare bones variety. It depicts the boundary lines, the distances and bearings along each boundary, the type of survey monument found or set and any vital information beyond the boundary that was used in determining the correct boundary locations.

Normally, our clients have no interest in having structures, easements, roadways, etc. depicted as they are somewhat irrelevant to their primary goal, which is knowing their outer boundary limits. Many times all they really care about is having a valid description that can be placed on contracts, deeds and mortgages. They already have an opinion on where the boundary is located, but, they don't have the proper words to describe it. Many other times all they care about is having something to mark a line so they can build a fence along the correct alignment. Once in a while we will get a job to show everything imaginable including bushes, trees, ponds, well sites, septic lagoon location, etc. etc.

BTW, I'm a land baron, also. However, some of it is bearin' and some of it is barren.

How much detail should a survey provide?>BARON

First bit of advice, don't call Tommy or Shawn!! 🙂

I think that we could step back and thank you for taking the time and making the effort to join this board and explore your issues with professionals in the field. So thank you for that effort.

In answering your question, yes, I think it's important that a boundary survey show potential encroachments. However, as many have pointed out, the dirt road may not have existed 34 years ago. It is also possible that the road does not bisect your property.

I believe that enough has been said and you have learned to engage your own surveyor to establish the facts. As with anything, if it has value it has a cost.

Good luck and thanks again for joining us. I do hope that you have learned a few things and may stick around. It never hurts us to know how our clients think!

Dtp

>>How much detail should a survey provide?

There might be a note explaining the duration of the warranty of the survey. 😉

You're asking all of the wrong questions...

One thing I have learned is lawyers don't determine anything.

If you are the road user then they explain how they would substantiate you have an easement.

If you are the landowner then they explain how they would substantiate the road is a trespass.