Sorry, I didn't intend to direct it back at you. I would agree with you that that the logic of using reputation only is improper, it's not evidence of boundary location.
I agree surv8r. Due diligence is the name of the game. The average person has no idea what is involved with land surveying. If only it were as easy as measuring from here to there. Maybe then we could say the prettiest map is the best survey. You can't even tell them you get what you pay for because some really good surveyors don't understand the value of their own work. I guess if you can confidently defend your survey then you have done your work, keeping in mind that it is only an opinion. You still need some humility.
That is the same question my dad use to ask me...
From the viewpoint of Jim the general public, one survey is no better than another. Jim pays for a survey, Jim finds the best deal he can. Jim expects the same quality from whomever he hires. Jim gets very frustrated and confused when the neighbor's survey comes up with an alternate location. Jim contacts his local govt representative and demands to know why surveyors are allowed to get away with causing such confusion.
The Govt official looks to modern technology (GIS) to solve this calamity. We have no one to blame but ourselves.
It's been a long (but good and productive) day and I am about fried from the effort.
Glad to see the response to the initial post. I do not wish to opine on the technical merits of judging others work. What has already been stated covers a pretty broad area.
As Boundary Lines pointed out, his initial query of me was what makes one survey better than another from the point of view of the public.
To properly answer that question we must first figure out what the public wants, what the public cares about, what the public values.
I can tell you right up front that "most" of the public does not care about the technical standards. They do not care what sort of software you use. They do not care about geometry, or research or whether you have enough money to pay your power bill this month.
Simply put, most people care about themselves. They care about their family, their friends and their relatives. Unless we happen to fall into one of those categories, they do not care so much about us.
That is not a bad thing. I bet when it comes to most things in life you and I are just the same. Like it or not, it is the truth.
So that brings us back to the original question. How do we create a product that has more value to our client?
Permit me please to take a short side trip here to say that those who spend their days trying to beat the other guy on price will not care how to create value for the client because they are too busy trying to cut costs instead. This is why ultimately they can not prosper into the future. They are focused on the wrong thing. Focus instead on what the client wants and values.
When creating value I first reject outright one of the assumptions in the initial question. "Assuming the product is delivered 'on time'..." I made a good living through the kindness of the other surveyors in this area. I use the word kindness loosely. They were kind to me by failing to deliver on promises. Failing to deliver the agreed upon product at the agreed upon time for the agreed upon price. Was this kind to themselves or their clients? In a word, No. But it certainly made my work more valuable.
Doing what you say.
When you say it.
For the price you say .... has great value to most clients.
That is one way to create the value and to charge accordingly.
Other ways to create value? Several years ago I had this kid who worked for me. His mom was a friend so I told her I'd give him a chance to see what he could do. He worked summers while he was in High School and College. After he had been doing that several years he told me the problem with surveys was the client didn't get anything "cool". "When you spend $300 on an IPOD, you have something cool. When you get a survey, you got nothing cool."
He was right. If we expect our clients to see value in our work, we need to deliver something cool. Very few maps will ever be cool so don't try and tell me the right design is cool. But there are lots of things that we can (and should?) deliver that are cool.
Seen a 3D Print of a piece of property? Overlay a tax photo on that and trust me, it is cool. How about a photo of the house you just surveyed that has been laser etched into an 8 x 10 piece of wood? Yep, that is pretty cool?
Keep in mind we (you and I as surveyors) do not have to judge these items as cool so long as our clients judge them that way. There are lots of ways we can add cool to what we do but it has to be judged cool by the client. You get a reputation of delivering not only good quality but also cool, and people will flock to your door.
Deliver cool and you have a survey that is more valuable.
My 2 cents. Feel free to disagree.
Larry P
So when you get a root canal, you will be looking for one which is "cool"?
The Public cannot divine which is the best survey.
A good map does indicate a clear, robust and thoughtful mind.
Only the Cosmos (and the Hallowed Hall of Good Surveyors and Jurists) know which survey is a good one.
Most good surveyors are delayed of their reward until the final reckoning.
"How do we create a product that has more value to our client?"
Larry,
I do not disagree with your logic at all. There is truth there. I think that we should utilize all of what is available to us in the production of our formal records..which is really what the client sees. Also, doing what you say you will, when you say you will do it, is paramount to client relations and good business in general.
In my deliverables to clients, I have provided copies of everything I have used to prepare their survey. Including copies of previous surveys, record plats or highway prints: whatever I used to prepare their survey. I always tell them to keep this information with their abstract or deed...wherever they keep their personal records.
I will, however, fall short of providing a preponderance of what will increase the appreciated 'value' of my work to my client. My alternative is to first talk with them as to why they need a survey and then proceed from there. I've found that if you can explain the process of 'getting a survey' and the time involved, they usually understand the fees a lot better.
Property owners usually wish to optimise the value of their holdings. Real property has to have "free and marketable title" to maintain its value. Nothing gives a piece of property a better "scrubbin' up and shine" than a current properly executed survey. My most common suggestion to them, "The Title to your property is no better than your Survey."
To me, there is immeasurable value in the services we provide. Taking the time to help a client understand that may be the best 'value-enhancement' that I can provide.
Paden, that is SO Right.
"The Title to your property is no better than your Survey."
The deed numbers tell you where to start looking for stuff; the good survey tells you what you got.
Well said Mr. Cash.
If you condense everything down to one word it has to be "Communicate".
Larry P
> As Boundary Lines pointed out, his initial query of me was what makes one survey better than another from the point of view of the public.
>
> To properly answer that question we must first figure out what the public wants, what the public cares about, what the public values.
>
> I can tell you right up front that "most" of the public does not care about the technical standards. They do not care what sort of software you use. They do not care about geometry, or research or whether you have enough money to pay your power bill this month.
>
> Simply put, most people care about themselves. They care about their family, their friends and their relatives. Unless we happen to fall into one of those categories, they do not care so much about us.
Agreed, but add that generally working people care about saving money and entrepreneurs care about making money, regarding business both mainly care about money.
> That is not a bad thing. I bet when it comes to most things in life you and I are just the same. Like it or not, it is the truth.
>
> So that brings us back to the original question. How do we create a product that has more value to our client?
>
> Permit me please to take a short side trip here to say that those who spend their days trying to beat the other guy on price will not care how to create value for the client because they are too busy trying to cut costs instead. This is why ultimately they can not prosper into the future. They are focused on the wrong thing. Focus instead on what the client wants and values.
Any entrepreneur that don't think about the allocation of resources including cutting cost, is not worth his salt.
> When creating value I first reject outright one of the assumptions in the initial question. "Assuming the product is delivered 'on time'..." I made a good living through the kindness of the other surveyors in this area. I use the word kindness loosely. They were kind to me by failing to deliver on promises. Failing to deliver the agreed upon product at the agreed upon time for the agreed upon price. Was this kind to themselves or their clients? In a word, No. But it certainly made my work more valuable.
I posed the original question and reject your outright rejection of the premise of the question, for this question you must assume that two surveyors deliver a survey on time, and that meets all states statutes.
>
> Doing what you say.
> When you say it.
> For the price you say .... has great value to most clients.
>
> That is one way to create the value and to charge accordingly.
I guess, however unless you own somekind of bonifide loser attitude then I would think this is pretty much assumed by anyone with half a brain.
> Other ways to create value? Several years ago I had this kid who worked for me. His mom was a friend so I told her I'd give him a chance to see what he could do. He worked summers while he was in High School and College. After he had been doing that several years he told me the problem with surveys was the client didn't get anything "cool". "When you spend $300 on an IPOD, you have something cool. When you get a survey, you got nothing cool."
About as cool as paying taxes...no news here!
> He was right. If we expect our clients to see value in our work, we need to deliver something cool. Very few maps will ever be cool so don't try and tell me the right design is cool. But there are lots of things that we can (and should?) deliver that are cool.
Side note to the lord: Dear Lord please help me refrain from making a cool tuxedo comment, thank you lord, I'm trying to be good honest.
> Seen a 3D Print of a piece of property? Overlay a tax photo on that and trust me, it is cool. How about a photo of the house you just surveyed that has been laser etched into an 8 x 10 piece of wood? Yep, that is pretty cool?
Are we talking about surveying or woodworking class, how many trinkets can one client set on thier desk?
> Keep in mind we (you and I as surveyors) do not have to judge these items as cool so long as our clients judge them that way. There are lots of ways we can add cool to what we do but it has to be judged cool by the client. You get a reputation of delivering not only good quality but also cool, and people will flock to your door.
>
> Deliver cool and you have a survey that is more valuable.
I was waiting with baited breath to find out how one survey can be superior than another in the clients eyes, schedule and legal issues being equal, now I find out being cool is the whole key, how the he11 did I miss that!
>
> My 2 cents. Feel free to disagree.
>
> Larry P
Surveying is a commodity, the client assumes all licensed surveyors follow the law, they assume you should have integrity, all things being equal they will only call you if they like you as a person, if your price is lower, your website has genuine credibility, or if you or some mutual friend has convinced them that knowing you could be socially benificial to them in some way.
It comes down to building a relationship though communication.
Communication can be put forth by all, but often isn't, a relationship is built over time, sometimes years, it usually takes some eye opening event with their past surveyor relationship for a client to really see your value.
My clientele IS NOT the average user of surveyors, so YMMV in dealing with once in a lifetime people that need a small boundary, they tend to be price shoppers because that often all they have to compare, HOWEVER, sometimes they have other reasons for rejecting your company for their work, which usually boils down to your reputation or your attitude, I just recently ran into this with an acquaintance I have known for years, they simply rejected out of hand the best surveyor for the job both price wise and knowledge wise BECAUSE they had a dislike for him based on something that happened 30 or so years ago. BTW, even though they contacted me, I WAS NOT the best surveyor for that project and told them so, I don't need some projects (that are out my area of specialization) and this was one of them.
SHG
I disagree most strenuously!
Surveying is not a commodity. Orange juice is a commodity. Peanut butter is a commodity. Surveying is a (professional) service.
Theoretically, the difference between a professional service and a trade service is that the practice of the former is more difficult or impossible for the consumer to judge; the later may often be clearly evaluated by the customer. For example, if I hire a plumber to fix the leaking faucet in my kitchen, it may be something I do not have the skills to do myself, but I can readily tell that the faucet works and does not leak. On the other hand, most clients will not be able to tell the difference between a poor survey and a superior one due to the nature of our profession.
It is not apparent to the client, nor is it necessary for the purposes of this discussion, that the true professional and the hack both follow state statutes and local ordinances. In fact, that is often one of the significant differences between the professional and the hack. The hack will cut corners and skirt the law to lower costs in their race to the bottom. All things are NOT equal! That is the problem.
Unfortunately, the one thing I have come to realize is that, without additional knowledge, investigation or experience, there is absolutely no way, on the surface, to tell the difference between a poor survey and a top notch one. There are common characteristics among real professionals who strive to provide their clients with value. There are also characteristics of those who cut corners turn in a product at a price their customers will pay.
There will always be hacks pretending to be part of our profession. There will always be doctors such as Conrad Murray passing themselves off as physicians in the same class as Dr. Christiaan Barnard and Dr. Albert Schweitzer. It is an unfortunate fact of life.
I disagree most strenuously!
>
> Unfortunately, the one thing I have come to realize is that, without additional knowledge, investigation or experience, there is absolutely no way, on the surface, to tell the difference between a poor survey and a top notch one. There are common characteristics among real professionals who strive to provide their clients with value. There are also characteristics of those who cut corners turn in a product at a price their customers will pay.
>
> There will always be hacks pretending to be part of our profession. There will always be doctors such as Conrad Murray passing themselves off as physicians in the same class as Dr. Christiaan Barnard and Dr. Albert Schweitzer. It is an unfortunate fact of life.
Very well put.
And may I add, that from the eyes of the public, our profession is valued more by the acts of those hacks, than by those of us that strive to exceed the minimum standard detail requirements.
-
I disagree with your strenuous disagreement!
> And may I add, that from the eyes of the public, our profession is valued more by the acts of those hacks, than by those of us that strive to exceed the minimum standard detail requirements.
>
> -
And that my friend is why a survey map is a commodity or could also be described as a "necessary evil" in the eyes of the public, if they could go to wal-mart and get one for $2 they would. The skill and judgement required to perform an excellent job is clearly understood by a fine surveyor, however mostly no one else knows or cares to purchase the extra mile that some excellent surveyors go.
Selling is key to business, it is a bad plan to try and sale something that no one knows about or wants. Even the crazy "you're gonna love my nuts" slap chop guy knows people need to understand and WANT your product.
If you put "extra mile to do a good survey" for sale, sadly mostly no one wants it and it ends up on the clearance rack with the $5 music CDs and winter shirts heading into summer.
A survey to most, is a piece of paper they need so they can get to what they really want, it's a stepping stone that they are hoping to find on sale and that it does not impede what ever it is they are dreaming of, which is definately not a survey, cool or no cool, trinket or no trinket, tux or no tux.
If you want to sale something that people WANT sadly you will have to find a different product to sale.
The reason so many "non sales" type personalities were able to make it in the profession for so long in the past is that there was more of a real & perceived need for the product, sadly thanks to the modern digitial internet age, the perception that you need a surveyor for a "cool" map is down to about nil.
When surveying screwed the pooch on GIS they permanently lost the "we make cool maps" title, now it is down to being a scarcely needed commodity.
I disagree most strenuously!
> Surveying is not a commodity. Orange juice is a commodity. Peanut butter is a commodity. Surveying is a (professional) service.
The standard definition of a commodity in economics is a marketable good or service for which there is a demand while the supply had an element of mutual substitution (fungibility).
If I can give you a list of half a dozen local surveyors who, in my opinion, will do an equally good job on your project; that's a commodity.
I disagree with your strenuous disagreement!
> A survey to most, is a piece of paper they need so they can get to what they really want, it's a stepping stone that they are hoping to find on sale and that it does not impede what ever it is they are dreaming of, which is definately not a survey, cool or no cool, trinket or no trinket, tux or no tux.
If that is what you think about your product, then you are providing your service to the wrong people. The service we offer (by we, I mean the company I work for, not we surveyors as a whole) is extremely valuable to our clients, therefore we charge a premium for those services and our clients are happy to pay the prices we charge, even though they very well may be the highest prices in the area.
We surveyors are an opinionated bunch, I know this. But some need to be a little more open-minded, especially the older guys. Sorry but it's true. Don't be afraid to let a younger guy teach you something; that's why most of you won't learn anything about GIS, you're too doggone hard-headed. 🙂
I disagree most strenuously!
> > Surveying is not a commodity. Orange juice is a commodity. Peanut butter is a commodity. Surveying is a (professional) service.
>
> The standard definition of a commodity in economics is a marketable good or service for which there is a demand while the supply had an element of mutual substitution (fungibility).
>
> If I can give you a list of half a dozen local surveyors who, in my opinion, will do an equally good job on your project; that's a commodity.
Agreed, so that leads us to the rock and a hard place where most surveyors find themselves today. Most do not even realize what they are selling is an economic commodity. Surveyors are trained that they should go the extra mile and money comes secondary, well that is not the way the world works and so many surveyors face a harsh reality of needing to do an excellent job on something that folks want for cheap cheap, and our surveyor bretheren with no financial education or capitalistic spirit will just give away for a few measly beans.
Larry had some credible points and I dont want to be too harsh but the truth must be known and understood. What Larry is describing is minor nuances that might help in a small margin to distinguish one economic commodity from another, however in the end no matter what you do it will not change the fact that it is a commodity and if you want to sell it, the there are a few minor things that one could do to bring in a few extra clients who might be forced to get a survey for some reason or another.
Well good thread. I have a hard time even taking sides on two "strenuously disagreed-on" philosophies.
There is a point that someone wants a survey, and they can get corners in the ground and a drawing of the survey from surveyor "a" for $500 and another one that looks about the same from surveyor "b" for $2000. Both products may be virtually indiscernable in difference to many clients.
We all know that to do a survey right we may need to spend a lot of time reviewing survey records and adjoiners' records and may well come to the same conclusion as the fly-by-night surveyor that surveys the surface of the latest deed with no research and possibly not even finding the controlling points of commencement(s) or the adjoiner's properties.
How do you sell your product? and how do you show that you went the extra mile in research as well as finding higher-level controlling corners? I don't know, but I do see some good thoughts on the subject.
Tom
> How do you sell your product? and how do you show that you went the extra mile in research as well as finding higher-level controlling corners?
Communication
