Aloha, thought this would be a different than the normal for this site--where many non surveyors would ask questions and there will be a lot suggestions to get a professional help. 😀
I followed through what suggested by a few of you here when I wrote about a PLS hired staked our property per the deed description and called it good.
After a bit of research and speaking to few local friends, I contacted a PLS who seems to be very reputed for his clean work. He is very familiar with this part of the island. He came and spent almost 3 hours touring around the property on a mule. I know what you are thinking...this is Kawasaki Mule UTV. (We are an orthodox but modern monks: 😉 I showed him 12 old monuments that I found--out of 36. Few were disturbed but they are there! Gave him all the deeds. He said, he needs couple weeks to study and prepare for field work. I was very happy when he said that as appose to, "I'll come tomorrow and pound the 1/2" pipes for you!"
I have two questions in this regard...
1. It is pretty obvious that the previous PLS's boundary set pipes' accuracy is very questionable. They are five to six feet away from the old monuments that were found. Most of old pipes found were set in the 60s and 80s and two of them probably in 40s. What should I do with these "inaccurate recently set pipes?" Do I have the right to remove them? If kept, it for sure will cause headaches for the future monks. Remember these are not dimples on a cap:-P
2. I was thinking about placing concrete around the newly hired PLS sets the pipes one the job is complete--with the hope to preserve them for years to come. Any suggestions how to do this without disturbing the set pipes?
Thank you for your thoughts. Aloha!
I would let the PLS do his work, evaluate the pipes set by the other surveyor, and make decisions based upon the deeds and what evidence he finds in the field. I would also let him know that you would like to put concrete around any new monuments that he might set as a part of his survey, and he will more than likely work with you to help accomplish that task.
If he knows before hand that you want to place the concrete, it might be better to place the concrete, and then set the monument in the concrete.
As far as removing the old pipes, I might be a little cautious about that. They may be there for other reasons that are unknown at this time. I know in my area, sometimes easements are monumented with pipes, rebars, etc, depending on the type of easement.
Talk with the local professional. He will know the best course of action to take.
Good luck
Time to kick back and let your newly-hired PLS do his thing. All we can do here is second guess. That will probably not be very helpful.
Be patient Swami and all of your questions will be answered in good time. I'm certain that if you coordinate with your PLS, he could set a temporary spike at the corners locations and you and your fellow monks could dig out the location and place a sonotube or something similar that he could use as a form to set the monument in fresh cement. Set a couple offset spikes so you can use a tape to pull the location back in after the hole is dug. I like to place metal fence posts adjacent to corners to help others find and avoid disturbing them in the future. Also, just a suggestion, but ask if he can prepare a Record of Survey drawing documenting what was set, how and why. It will prove invaluable down the road after memories fade and we move on.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
Surveying in Hawaii is not that easy, there are a lot of overlaps and gaps all over the place, especially in your area, where it is not that developed yet.
It might be a good idea to ask the Surveyor if he could set his pipes in concrete. A few good reasons include that it is much easier for the person installing the new corners to do it, and he can finish the concrete around the cap. He probably has set pipes in caps before. Of course if that is too large of an expense, maybe he could set extra-long pipes for you.
It might be a good guess that the new pipes are haphazardly set, but I would definitely get the opinion of the surveyor you are hiring. After he has done his evaluation and his work ask him also about removing the other caps. You might have every right to if they are monuments you hired to be set and you don't like there. He might advise against it, though, and he is probably more knowledgeable in local laws regarding this.
I have always been wary about disturbing another surveyor's monuments, but it might be a different standard for me to remove a monument on a client's property as opposed (not appose..lol) to the client removing them.
Anyway, I think you were wise to hire a good surveyor with a good reputation.
Tom
> Be patient Swami and all of your questions will be answered in good time. I'm certain that if you coordinate with your PLS, he could set a temporary spike at the corners locations and you and your fellow monks could dig out the location and place a sonotube or something similar that he could use as a form to set the monument in fresh cement. Set a couple offset spikes so you can use a tape to pull the location back in after the hole is dug. I like to place metal fence posts adjacent to corners to help others find and avoid disturbing them in the future. Also, just a suggestion, but ask if he can prepare a Record of Survey drawing documenting what was set, how and why. It will prove invaluable down the road after memories fade and we move on.
:good:
I like that. Coordinate with your surveyor. I think most surveyors would be glad to have the ground and a sonotube all prepped for them to install the monument.
> I would let the PLS do his work, evaluate the pipes set by the other surveyor, and make decisions based upon the deeds and what evidence he finds in the field. I would also let him know that you would like to put concrete around any new monuments that he might set as a part of his survey, and he will more than likely work with you to help accomplish that task.
>
> If he knows before hand that you want to place the concrete, it might be better to place the concrete, and then set the monument in the concrete.
>
> As far as removing the old pipes, I might be a little cautious about that. They may be there for other reasons that are unknown at this time. I know in my area, sometimes easements are monumented with pipes, rebars, etc, depending on the type of easement.
>
> Talk with the local professional. He will know the best course of action to take.
>
> Good luck
Aloha, Jimmy:
Thanks for the input. The new PLS did say he will evaluate all the existing pipes before setting anything new. So far I am very pleased with his approach from a little that I've learned about land surveying.
No, I am not going to remove any of the old pipes. I am only asking about the pipes set by a PLS that I hire just a few years ago. But I think you answered the question. I will have a chat with our my new PLS
Thanks!
> Time to kick back and let your newly-hired PLS do his thing. All we can do here is second guess. That will probably not be very helpful.
Thanks Holy Cow! I am excited to see the results!
> Be patient Swami and all of your questions will be answered in good time. I'm certain that if you coordinate with your PLS, he could set a temporary spike at the corners locations and you and your fellow monks could dig out the location and place a sonotube or something similar that he could use as a form to set the monument in fresh cement. Set a couple offset spikes so you can use a tape to pull the location back in after the hole is dug. I like to place metal fence posts adjacent to corners to help others find and avoid disturbing them in the future. Also, just a suggestion, but ask if he can prepare a Record of Survey drawing documenting what was set, how and why. It will prove invaluable down the road after memories fade and we move on.
Aloha, Williwaw:
As always, thank you for your helpful suggestion.s Since I'll be charged by hour, I think he will happy to set a temporary spike. We could dig set a form of some sort. I have bunch of old 8" pvc pipe pieces that might serve that purpose. In fact we can even mix the concrete and have it ready for him as the corners are being set.
My initial thought after reading your note was I can reestablish the temporary stake location with my total station, but I think your temporary offset spikes probably faster.
I assume, if I ask him "Record of Survey drawing documenting what was set, how and why" he will know what it is. I ask him for that. Thanks again!
> Surveying in Hawaii is not that easy, there are a lot of overlaps and gaps all over the place, especially in your area, where it is not that developed yet.
Aloha, Anthony:
You are right...overlapping parcels is one issue. I discovered on my own that there was an 8 feet overlap between two of our parcels after a PLS set all the property corners. That I understand...probably something we inherited. However, many of the newly established property corners after resurveying was done are about 4 to 5 feet away from the old existing pipes. That concerned me. The PLS came and move the two pipes the fix the overlap. I know moving two pipes not going to solve the issue. Since the remaining property line are no longer accurate in relation to this two moved pipes. I am not a PLS but I do understand thing a little bit. Make the long story short, I could not get him to fix other pipes. Being in small community on a island decided to get second opinion on the matter. Hence the new PLS...
This forum was immensely helpful in guiding me. And definitely trilled to get an input from someone from our islands--although Maui feels like another continent for us Kauaians:-D
> It might be a good idea to ask the Surveyor if he could set his pipes in concrete. A few good reasons include that it is much easier for the person installing the new corners to do it, and he can finish the concrete around the cap. He probably has set pipes in caps before. Of course if that is too large of an expense, maybe he could set extra-long pipes for you.
>
> It might be a good guess that the new pipes are haphazardly set, but I would definitely get the opinion of the surveyor you are hiring. After he has done his evaluation and his work ask him also about removing the other caps. You might have every right to if they are monuments you hired to be set and you don't like there. He might advise against it, though, and he is probably more knowledgeable in local laws regarding this.
>
> I have always been wary about disturbing another surveyor's monuments, but it might be a different standard for me to remove a monument on a client's property as opposed (not appose..lol) to the client removing them.
>
> Anyway, I think you were wise to hire a good surveyor with a good reputation.
>
> Tom
Aloha, Tom: Thank you as always for your input! I will follow up with the new PLS...you and Williwaw's ideas should be something the PLS will able to help with.
I hope there is no law against removing a pipe that was set in a wrong place. In fact we ignorant landowners destroy so many pipes all the time to keep PLSs busy right 😀
For an example one pipe suppose to be 3 feet inside one of our building according to the previous PLS! He set a witness pipe out side of the building (I think that is what you call for monument representing the actual corner right?). Five feet from the foundation of the building there is old 1/2 pipe which was ignored. Here the setback requirement is five feet I think.
I will keep you all posted with the progress.
> He came and spent almost 3 hours touring around the property on a mule. I know what you are thinking...this is Kawasaki Mule UTV.
>
I confess! The picture of you side saddle in robes popped into my head. Thanks for the laugh. 😀
I used to live on Kauai and surveyed there for 5 years before moving to Maui.
> > He came and spent almost 3 hours touring around the property on a mule. I know what you are thinking...this is Kawasaki Mule UTV.
> >
> I confess! The picture of you side saddle in robes popped into my head. Thanks for the laugh. 😀
Aloha, Scott: Also imagine my PLS behind me on a Mule with his GPS. I bet he could use one of your truck mount stand but slightly modified of course! 😀
Glad you enjoyed the humor!
> I used to live on Kauai and surveyed there for 5 years before moving to Maui.
Aloha, Anthony: That's wonderful, no wonder you are familiar with Kauai! Well if you visit Kauai feel free to email me. Will give you a tour of the property. Wear your tourist hat. Aloha
Nothing wrong with mules, mine is a Tennessee Walker Mule named Mule, stands about 16 1/2 hands. Getting old enough now to look for a hole to put him in, or a way to get on the uphill side when I want to mount.
jud
Tennessee Walker Mule
> Nothing wrong with mules, mine is a Tennessee Walker Mule named Mule, stands about 16 1/2 hands. Getting old enough now to look for a hole to put him in, or a way to get on the uphill side when I want to mount.
> jud
Aloha, Jud:
I didn't realize they are very beautiful. I just googled for Tennessee Walker Mule...Here is one of many images I found. 
we generally set 40" #5 rebars and pound them in so that 12" is exposed. After setting the frontage pins on a job, we came back the next day and the landowner had carefully dug around the pin, installed forms and poured very professional looking 6x6 concrete monuments around our rebars. He left the cap flush with the top of concrete and it seemed to work great. They could have easily been mistaken for the DOT monuments here in NH if you didn't look too close.
> we generally set 40" #5 rebars and pound them in so that 12" is exposed. After setting the frontage pins on a job, we came back the next day and the landowner had carefully dug around the pin, installed forms and poured very professional looking concrete monuments around our rebars. He left the cap flush with the top of concrete and it seemed to work great.
Aloha, Perry: That's pretty deeply driven rebar!
We do fairly well with concrete, since we do most of our minor concrete work in house. So I don't think that's an issue. I'd like to have the concrete monument flush with the finish grade. We have several tractors with loader, backhoe and a skid steer that we us for maintenance. My concern is one us going to ran over it sometime if it is 12" above grade. However, I do see the benefit of driving it that deep. Perhaps, I could do what you client did then install few steel fence post next to it as Williwaw suggested.
I have a related question...
When you drive a pipe what is your tolerance? Or what is the acceptable tolerance for accuracy. When I was practicing with my total station I found pipes are difficult to maintain accuracy as you pound it in the ground. I can do pretty precisely with wood hubs combined with a tack. When I do the stakeout routine after driving the pipe to verify, I am alway off by 0.02 to 0.03 or so. Of course I am not doing First Order survey...:-) Is there any trick to set the pipe or rebar accurately once you determine the exact location?
Thanks