When a dictator controls or a party controls the government for over 30 yrs which is what Singapore has had, it must be difficult for the individual to stand up for his rights when everyone, even the government surveyor is against him.
so you want to talk politics? ok, under Lee Singapore rose from 3rd world to 1st world in less than 50 years. how long did it take the US to reach 1st world status since 1776? so while your infrastructures in the US are crumbling, you should see our roads, airport, train system. come take a look first, you might even enjoy it here. you can walk the streets up to the wee hours of the morning without fear of being mugged.
He thought that pipe was the corner of his property for 30 years, but some young government surveyor said nope its 20' over here according to the deed that was written 60 years ago.
Something wrong with a system of that nature.
but isn't the universal approach to solve problems is to correct previous wrongdoings?
you set free people wrongly jailed
you clean up a river polluted by business
you return money that were scammed by Madoff
you refund overpayment taxes
what's so different if the govt surveyor told you your boundary is 20' away?you did not lose your lot, it was not where you thought it to be.if you are not where you are suppoed to be located then it only means you had a lousy surveyor or you did not have it surveyed in the first place.
Keep in mind that trial court decisions are appealable to the Appellate court in a District. The Appellate review is of points of law, not of evidentiary substance.
well if you find the judicial path too complicated to pursue, you can go at it through the legislative route. no surveyor ever made it to senate?to congress?
you never lobbied as a group to change the laws?
FrancisH, post: 397392, member: 10211 wrote: No, the monument by being not in its place based on today's findings means that some injustice has been done to someone. someone bought a 100 acre lot in the past and the dead surveyor said that those were his bounding monuments. If those monuments contain 120 acres then his neighbor must have lost 20 acres that he did not know about. If those monuments contain 80 acres then the current lot owner lost 20 acres that he supposedly paid for and was not able to fully utilize for his intention.
You have at a certain time in history have to correct this fallacy that your boundary contains exactly what you bought as described in your deed.
Again, something you may not understand. Junior, Senior rights may preside.
THAT'S why mathematics cannot control.
What you bought is on the ground. Not a paper written by a lawyer. Sometimes with the benefit of a survey many times in Colonial States without.
I will send you a description from VA, that is a valid current description of property and ask that you would retrace.
FrancisH, post: 397394, member: 10211 wrote: so you want to talk politics? ok, under Lee Singapore rose from 3rd world to 1st world in less than 50 years. how long did it take the US to reach 1st world status since 1776? so while your infrastructures in the US are crumbling, you should see our roads, airport, train system. come take a look first, you might even enjoy it here. you can walk the streets up to the wee hours of the morning without fear of being mugged.
but isn't the universal approach to solve problems is to correct previous wrongdoings?
you set free people wrongly jailed
you clean up a river polluted by business
you return money that were scammed by Madoff
you refund overpayment taxeswhat's so different if the govt surveyor told you your boundary is 20' away?you did not lose your lot, it was not where you thought it to be.if you are not where you are suppoed to be located then it only means you had a lousy surveyor or you did not have it surveyed in the first place.
Well if I built my fence, my garage , my garden based on monuments marked for my property 10 years ago and you came along and said my fence, garage & garden were not on "MY" property based on three monuments from who knows where 1 year ago. In the US I have a basis for a claim of property rights. However from what I have read no such rights exist in Singapore, Government way or highway.
No politics just truth.
As has been pointed out ad nauseum, land titles in America have been in a continual state of densification over centuries. The tools with which they have been calculated and layed out have also evolved. But, the principles of repose, reliance, and sanctity of title - based upon tangible evidence - endure. They must, and that is what Justice Cooley was stating.
if lots have been continuously subdivided or consolidated, then there must be a time in the past where we can say that if a monument is off by 10' then it must be a blunder. the lot was surveyed in 2000 using ts/gps, surely 10' is not common using those equipment right?
Cooley was talking from experiences from 1880s and earlier, surely he never foresaw the time today where 1000 acres could be accurately surveyed in a few days time. he was discussing that even if the surveyor wanted to measure to the mm level, he could not realistically do this because his methods and equipment at that time did not allow for this.so since you could not correct the errors at that time then the best solution would be to leave it a it is so that there would be peace among neighbors.
FrancisH, post: 397395, member: 10211 wrote: well if you find the judicial path too complicated to pursue, you can go at it through the legislative route. no surveyor ever made it to senate?to congress?
you never lobbied as a group to change the laws?
Rest assured that our State and federal surveying organizations have lobbyists and do sponsor legislative amendments to the codified statutes that impact our profession. But newly enacted and revised statutes are not retroactive under our national and state constitutions. That is why we adhere to the guidance provided by our judicial branch for those issues which are dependent upon the application of laws in force at the time previous surveys were performed.
It's all about context, my friend.
FrancisH, post: 397395, member: 10211 wrote: well if you find the judicial path too complicated to pursue, you can go at it through the legislative route. no surveyor ever made it to senate?to congress?
you never lobbied as a group to change the laws?
You obviously have not been educated on the constituency of the US government.
Well if I built my fence, my garage , my garden based on monuments marked for my property 10 years ago and you came along and said my fence, garage & garden were not on "MY" property based on three monuments from who knows where 1 year ago. In the US I have a basis for a claim of property rights. However from what I have read no such rights exist in Singapore, Government way or highway.
well you see, your property rights would be conflicting with the property rights of the person you are currently trespassing.
You obviously have not been educated on the constituency of the US government.
well there you go again, saying I am not educated in this and that. but you see what's the use of you yourself being educated in those things and you can claim expertise in those things if you can't even see the problems that your current system is doing to your profession and you yourself can't even offer a solutions to your 200 year old profession.
FrancisH, post: 397398, member: 10211 wrote: if lots have been continuously subdivided or consolidated, then there must be a time in the past where we can say that if a monument is off by 10' then it must be a blunder. the lot was surveyed in 2000 using ts/gps, surely 10' is not common using those equipment right?
Cooley was talking from experiences from 1880s and earlier, surely he never foresaw the time today where 1000 acres could be accurately surveyed in a few days time. he was discussing that even if the surveyor wanted to measure to the mm level, he could not realistically do this because his methods and equipment at that time did not allow for this.so since you could not correct the errors at that time then the best solution would be to leave it a it is so that there would be peace among neighbors.
Cooley was referring, of course, to retracement surveys. Consider what a retracing surveyor in 100 years is going to make of our pathetic measuring tools. Hopefully, proper thought will be applied to how landowners relied upon the pitiful monuments we set for their use.
Francis you assume because 1 deed says 100 acres and it measures 110 acres by default the neighbors deed which says 100 acres would be shorted 10 acres that is incorrect a lot of these deeds have not been surveyed or maybe weren't surveyed since the original BLM 1/4 section splits. OUR DEEDS ARE NOT ALL WRITTEN BY SURVEYORS. How do you handle all the gaps and overlaps in Singapore based on alll the mesurment only descriptions. What if the he 3 monuments north the 3 monuments south and the 3 monuments west and the 3 monuments east all disagree. What do you do with deeds like many here that were written when 1:1000 was good closure so your monument after running around a square mile would be off about 20'. Do you tell the trespassers grandchildren they are encroaching after 100 years of harmonious coterminious habitation. Do you understand adverse possession and, aquesence.
I think everyone on this page would agree a 10000 square foot lot has to be treated very differently than a 640 acre boundary. Your city state is almostly entirely urban you never have to deal with rural surveying New York City guys probably lean towards your methods. rural guys retracing vast tracts cannot think so narrowly what do you do with a 640 acre section with 700 acres es of deeds or with 550 acres of deed.
Also I am still waiting on your response wether all the property line fence in the US should be renrun every time a more accurate system of measurement is introduced.
Actually the problems I see facing MY profession are those that think that magic GPS tells all. And any that disagree with those magical measurements or findings are ignorant to realities of surveying.
FrancisH, post: 397392, member: 10211 wrote: No, the monument by being not in its place based on today's findings means that some injustice has been done to someone. someone bought a 100 acre lot in the past and the dead surveyor said that those were his bounding monuments. If those monuments contain 120 acres then his neighbor must have lost 20 acres that he did not know about. If those monuments contain 80 acres then the current lot owner lost 20 acres that he supposedly paid for and was not able to fully utilize for his intention.
You have at a certain time in history have to correct this fallacy that your boundary contains exactly what you bought as described in your deed.
Where did this survey happen?
It is a figment of your extreme imagination an very far off the subject.
Theroy does not substitute for real findings.
The only situations where I found surveys to be 20 acres short were when the seller did not own the number of acres they sold.
If and or buts throw in some what if and presume in theory situations do not explain or prove anything.
They represent conversation beginnings and provide no answers.
Stiick to the facts and present something more than opinions why you are position to decide that any monuments are incorrect location because your math is better than that of the ancient surveyor.
Francis...I have a question. When is the last time you pulled a steel tape to compare your total station or gps points?
FrancisH, post: 397401, member: 10211 wrote: well you see, your property rights would be conflicting with the property rights of the person you are currently trespassing.
Says who? What if I were deeded my property first? And those monument were my original monuments?
Francis...I have a question. When is the last time you pulled a steel tape to compare your total station or gps points?
Same time that you pulled out your alidade to compare with total station angles
Says who? What if I were deeded my property first? And those monument were my original monuments?
Says you, you were talking about occupying wrong lot right? So if you are on the wrong lot then it's someone else's lot since your lot is 20' away
Actually the problems I see facing MY profession are those that think that magic GPS tells all. And any that disagree with those magical measurements or findings are ignorant to realities of surveying.
Well good luck with still using your alidade and chain then
FrancisH, post: 397410, member: 10211 wrote: Says you, you were talking about occupying wrong lot right? So if you are on the wrong lot then it's someone else's lot since your lot is 20' away
Come on over to VA, I'll teach you how to survey in the US. Lol. Hey bud wish you the best we may not agree on the methodology but I respect your resilience. You do what you do, but please respect what we do.
Different strokes for different folks!
Also I am still waiting on your response wether all the property line fence in the US should be renrun every time a more accurate system of measurement is introduced.
Tell me how accurate do you need to be if you have now mm gps ts and the width of your retaining wall is 15 cm when constructed over the dividing line.
Maybe you need to change deeds again when you have a strong wall that is around 0.1mm thick.