Just read this paragraph in a earthwork project's bid package to contractors:
4.13 Grade Reference Points
(a) NGS Benchmark Monument on dam spillway
(b) Surveyed aerial mapping target points within and adjacent to the Project site (marked with rebar by land surveyor and GPS'd by Project GIS Consultant) will be relocated for contractor by GIS Consultant as needed).
So there ya go. GPS in the hands of a GIS professional (whom by the way is not an LS or even close) used to establish grade control for a large earthwork project.
Ouch.
No it's not. The specs may have clearly been written by someone who does not understand. What state is this in?
"earthwork project's bid package to contractors" is just that. What it's not is the rules and regs for the state. I've seen this before.
Edit: My bad.....I missed the state.
GIS = Get It Surveyed
I'm pretty sure that the great state of CA has this all covered in terms of responsible charge and protecting the public. Doncha' think
...now wher'd I put that Garmin
GIS = Get It Surveyed
> I'm pretty sure that the great state of CA has this all covered in terms of responsible charge and protecting the public. Doncha' think
>
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Yep. clearly under the statutory definition of surveying (§8726), although this work would also fall under the limited surveying CEs are allowed to do under §6731.1 of the PE Act.
If there is a non-LS/non-CE in the role of "GIS consultant", there's a problem.
GIS = gosh I'm surveying
GIS guy is listed in project docs. Not an LS or PE, not even close.
This is a consultant prepared project for a city. 2 PE's approved/signed the docs for the city. A pre 82 PE was part of the consultant's team, along with a landscape architect and Mr. GIS guy.
But, don't miss the forest for the trees, its not just that this is a violation of the LS Act. Its that its happening and folks that should know better are letting it happen
Reminds me of the TV commercial slogan: "whats in your back pocket?"
clearcut, I would be interested in finding out more details about this situation. Feel free to email me.
Ric
comments from Downunder - Australia
Without knowing the details, this sort of thing is an problem many licenced (registered) surveyors here can see as an upcoming issue in years ahead, if not now.
People get hold of a GPS (survey accurate ones)and 'Voila'. Suddenly the earth is their stamping ground and because they can read (the figures on the GPS screen) they are instant experts in anything spatial. And that includes boundaries and elevations.
It should be a concern for those in higher places, but its an eduactional issue, and how do you inform the ignorant of the dangers of letting these sort of people loose in the great world of what is (should be) a surveying domain.
One problem is - 'Uh, they just want to keep their jobs' and other uninformed comments.
Here we would be fairly unlikely to have comments as quoted written into specs, but that's only part of the outsourced work that makes it into documentation, tenders etc.
You are wise to be forwarned and wary.
Couldn't be any more clearcut than that.
Richard:
Well said! We know the problems, it is the "overseers" that don't know the dangers of letting amateurs gather and process important spatial data.
T.Wilson
Just another example of the way things are going to be. GPS is a public tool and is intended to be used by the public, as well as surveyors. When it comes to using GPS and spatial data, I find that GIS consultants have just as much knowledge and understanding as Surveyors. With new technology comes new expertise and practitioners. Here in Texas, our Surveyors’ Act only covers our ability to locate and establish boundary lines. This specification would be appropriate and I would have no problem working under this clause.
Where does it say that the GIS consultant couldn't be a land surveyor? Instead of complaining about those who take work away from us, maybe we need to concentrate on getting that work back where it belongs.
Also, we need to learn the difference between being professionals and using tools.
Would you ban "amateurs" from wielding hammer and saw because they weren't experienced carpenters?
Ric,
I'm contemplating my next move. There's other items of interest concerning surveying and engineering disciplines. I'd like to shake the tree first before sending it to you to pursue legal remedy.
thanks
Sicilian, The GIS guy is not a surveyor, not even close. He's listed in the bid docs as part of their listing of the project team.
And as far as amateurs welding hammers, thats OK as long as they're working under an experienced lead carpenter. In this case the amateur is in charge.
I wouldn't hire an amateur to be in charge of framing my house, would you?
I'm sort of surprised on your take on this, I usually agree with your positions.
Gene, in our state we have laws that strive to place the correct disciplines in charge of providing horizontal and vertical control. GIS specialists are an unlicensed profession and have absolutely no education or experienced requirements. In our state one has to be an LS or PE to perform horizontal or vertical control. And appropriately so. It is in the public's best interest.
Reminds me of the construction job I just went to where the construction manager was telling me my stakes were off 6" verically. I asked him why he thought so. He said he shot them with his lazer level. He said he had 40 years of experience in constructin and he was quite sure my stuff was off.
I asked him when was the last time he pegged his level.
I got a blank stare.
I took him out and pegged his level and then had him re-shoot my stuff.
Problem solved.
If anyone can perform construction control in your state, I am not sure I would agree thats a good thing.
> Where does it say that the GIS consultant couldn't be a land surveyor?
I guess we don't need a mandatory 4 yr. dgree any more.
Just a manual on using GPS.
Way Cool!
DJ
Gotcha....I misunderstood the circumstances.
Who is to say that the guy supplying the data has no education or experience? And how much of either does someone need to process GPS data and provide coordinates? The days of surveyors working in anonymity are over. The veil of secrecy has been lifting concerning geodetic measurements (what’s that guy doing behind the camera?). I would say 10 years ago hunting and fishing guides had a better understanding of GPS than most surveyors. I know far too many license surveyors who no diddly squat about GPS and yet complain of others. If the local governments want to rely on a GIS specialist or whatever you want to call it to provide some coordinates, why would that be a concern of mine? I am an expert measurer, but I am licensed to locate, map, define and give opinion on boundaries. Why waste time on coordinate peckers? I am more than glad to let others peck away.
And yes, anyone in Texas can perform construction staking. It is completely un-regulated. And yet, I have a nice list of clients. Go figure?
I understand. Let me know if I can help. It's always nice to educate agencies and others that put out contracts.
Ric
Gene,
California's Business and Professions Code does not limit land surveying to boundary related activities:
8726. Land surveying defined
A person, including any person employed by the state or by a city, county, or city and county within the state, practices land surveying within the meaning of this chapter who, either in a public or private capacity, does or offers to do any one or more of the following:...
...(f) Geodetic or cadastral surveying. As used in this chapter, geodetic surveying means performing surveys, in which account is taken of the figure and size of the earth to determine or predetermine the horizontal or vertical positions of fixed objects thereon or related thereto, geodetic control points, monuments, or stations for use in the practice of land surveying or for stating the position of fixed objects, geodetic control points, monuments, or stations by California Coordinate System coordinates...
Ric
Geodetic or cadastral surveying. As used in this chapter, geodetic surveying means performing surveys, in which account is taken of the figure and size of the earth to determine or predetermine the horizontal or vertical positions of fixed objects thereon or related thereto, geodetic control points, monuments, or stations for use in the practice of land surveying or for stating the position of fixed objects, geodetic control points, monuments, or stations by California Coordinate System coordinates...
There might be a few loopholes right there:
for use in the practice of land surveying
The GIS consultant could argue that he/she is not doing the above (practicing land surveying). The general population considers practicing land surveying as the legal/boundaries stuff. A board of examiners or judge could very well come with the same conclusion.
stating the position
The GIS consultant could also argue that he/she is not doing the above ("stating" could be interpreted as preparing a legal document that "states" the position).
It's a grey area and that's probably why those types of things are observed in various projects across the nations.
I mean a guy (through training and experience) can grab a RTK GPS, set up a few control points, survey a stockpile, drop the data in a 3D software join the dots (1-24:Toe | 25-41:Crest | 42-59: Spot), and pump out a volume. It will be difficult to convince Mr. and Mrs. Everybody that this guy is practicing land surveying, because he is stating that the stockpile contains 2500 CM.
Surveyors' business plans should include this reality in the future potential problems section. This reality will not go away.
My $0.02 like they say in Polish.
I would suggest bringing these perceived violations into the light of day, will only hasten the weakening of the very legislation you hold dear.
