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Fence Posts as Boundary Monuments (Another Example)

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(@kent-mcmillan)
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So I started the next project today, a 120 acre tract in the Hill Country Southwest of Austin. The southeast corner of the tract was described differently in various conveyances made during the last 20 years and, when I saw it on on the ground, it was yet another example of the train wreck that using fence posts as boundary markers creates. If you want to use a fence post as a boundary monument, but don't want to set any nearby reference monuments from which the supposed position of the fence post can be re-established, look at this photo and go and sin no more.

BTW, the drill hole in the concrete at the base of the post looks more promising than the two 60d nails stabbed in the upper parts of the post, but we'll see.

 
Posted : May 7, 2016 8:13 pm
(@neil-grande)
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Most of it is just pure laziness. Some crews don't want to take the time to set a reference monument on line (if they can) a couple feet away. Other crews will just plop the prism on top of the post and shoot it, no matter how much it is leaning.

 
Posted : May 8, 2016 9:57 am
(@roger_ls)
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If the client needs a solid point to work with, set a pipe at the base of the post, some witnesses, and call off the rest of that garbage.

 
Posted : May 8, 2016 10:06 am
(@kent-mcmillan)
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roger_LS, post: 371124, member: 11550 wrote: If the client needs a solid point to work with, set a pipe at the base of the post, some witnesses, and call off the rest of that garbage.

Well, there are two tasks, that corner falls on the West line of a 100 acre tract that was conveyed out of common ownership in 1924. The 100 acres is senior to the tract I'm working on, which is a remainder. That fence post is not a corner of the 100 acres as conveyed in 1924, so the exercise involves locating the boundary of the 100 acres first.

However, some of those three variations of the corner have been used to control the boundaries of later subdivisions. So, although at most only one of them actually falls on the boundary of the 100 acres, they have acquired a life of their own as evidence of other boundaries only indirectly related to the corner. In short, the mess has multiplied, which is typical for fenceline surveying. All that is left is for the fence post to be replaced, taking all three markers with it when it goes.

 
Posted : May 8, 2016 10:31 am
holy-cow
(@holy-cow)
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I suppose I could have set a nail in the top of a fence post yesterday. Instead I set a bar adjacent to the east side of the post at whatever distance off that happened to be. I'll figure it out tomorrow. It wasn't intended to be a property corner, but, where the new property line intersected a county road right-of-way line. It was pure chance that the intersection fell directly on an existing fence post in the road fence. I suppose I could have shifted the entire line one foot further to the north or south and missed the post for convenience of setting the bar, but we had already set the other end of the line. The monument on the section line 45 feet away is the true corner.

 
Posted : May 8, 2016 1:08 pm

(@rj-schneider)
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[sarcasm]I think one nail represents grid coordinates, and the other is surface.[/sarcasm]

 
Posted : May 8, 2016 4:51 pm
(@danemince)
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what is the problem? looks like you found the corner(s).

 
Posted : May 8, 2016 8:18 pm
(@imaudigger)
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Looks like they have given you some discretion.

 
Posted : May 9, 2016 7:24 am
(@j-penry)
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Set witness points on line in at least two directions at a specific distance such as 50.00' so that they will not be confused with the corner location. Then when the fence post gets removed, the location will be preserved by the witness points. I've seen where surveyor set a witness point 1' away and it eventually becomes the monument.

In a similar situation, a surveyor in an expensive business district set an offset point 1.0' away from the true location because it fell 0.1' inside the old building. The old building was torn down and the contractor for the new building built to the offset point making the new building 1.0' over the line. Yes, the offset was noted on the plat, but the surveyor bore some responsibility for creating a monument that resembled the corner monument.

 
Posted : May 9, 2016 8:46 am
(@imaudigger)
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I thought the suggestion was going to be to set two witness POSTS 😉

 
Posted : May 9, 2016 9:24 am

nate-the-surveyor
(@nate-the-surveyor)
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Mr. McMillan, What I think I'd do, if that were my problem....

I'd tie all the existing "nails, holes in concrete, and other signs of surveying". Then, I'd consider the fence corner. I'd try to set a NAIL at the intersection of the old fences. Then, calc things (assuming of course, that I have tied into enough monumentation, of the surveyors who came before me.) Then, I'd go to the office, study it. And, then make a decision. I once did this very thing, and FOUND a rebar and cap, some 1.5 foot away, and THEN discovered his survey, which was an added benefit. Turns out, he had TIED and SET his mon at the OLD and BROKEN fence corner, which had been rebuilt, some years ago. OF couse I held it, because, it was the "Old original fence corner", that was referenced in the deeds.

If all this sort of thought process fails, set your own nice big shiney cap, on a rebar, where you deem the fence corner "is", and move on.

Arkansas now thinking about a Texas survey.....

Carry on. Use wisdom. nothing like a pretty new survey monument.

Nate

 
Posted : May 9, 2016 11:21 am
holy-cow
(@holy-cow)
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How about a void being indicative of an apparent corner. Today we found four corner posts, each for one of the four fences heading off in a cardinal direction. There was a nice bare spot precisely where all four would intersect.

 
Posted : May 9, 2016 2:58 pm
(@jack-chiles)
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Kent,

That looks like a thorny ash in the background. Must have some moisture in that area.

 
Posted : May 9, 2016 3:12 pm
a-harris
(@a-harris)
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Tickle-tongue

 
Posted : May 9, 2016 4:08 pm
(@kent-mcmillan)
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Dane Mince, post: 371215, member: 296 wrote: what is the problem? looks like you found the corner(s).

LOL! The problem is that there is no good reason for that clusterfuge. Like most fenceline surveying, it was quick and easy at the time, but didn't really deal with the problem, just kicked the can down the road. The next steps will be to locate the West line of the 100 acres and (probably) place yet a fourth monument where it intersects the line running westerly from that multiple choice fence post to mark the true corner that the post only approximately marks. Fortunately, there are survey markers a few hundred feet to the West from which that line can be re-established with relative certainty.

 
Posted : May 9, 2016 7:38 pm

(@kent-mcmillan)
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Jack Chiles, post: 371323, member: 24 wrote: That looks like a thorny ash in the background. Must have some moisture in that area.

That's not a Hercules Club (Zanthoxylum hirsutum). It's a Mahonia trifoliata (Agarita). The berries are edible and ripe at the moment.

http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=MATR3

 
Posted : May 9, 2016 7:49 pm
(@kent-mcmillan)
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J. Penry, post: 371267, member: 321 wrote: Set witness points on line in at least two directions at a specific distance such as 50.00' so that they will not be confused with the corner location. Then when the fence post gets removed, the location will be preserved by the witness points.

One problem with post and wire fences is that the Caterpillar Company seems to offer the most efficient means of removing the old fence when a new one is to be constructed. As long as the reference monuments are countersunk at least 6 inches, they ought to survive, but it's a gamble. I tend to favor setting a sacrificial monument that represents the corner, but setting the reference monuments well off the fence, countersunk, in GPSable positions.

 
Posted : May 9, 2016 7:58 pm
a-harris
(@a-harris)
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IMO,

The plant by the fence corner is a barberry (Berberis trifoliata) and has a few red berries.

The tree appearing in the upper right side of the picture is a tickle-tongue

:gammon:

 
Posted : May 9, 2016 8:12 pm
(@kent-mcmillan)
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A Harris, post: 371372, member: 81 wrote: IMO,

The plant by the fence corner is a barberry (Berberis trifoliata) and has a few red berries.

The tree appearing in the upper right side of the picture is a tickle-tongue

I learned just today that what I used to refer to as Berberis trifoliata is now known as Mahonia trifoliata. Berberis is a synonym.

As for the plant in the upper right, that is a Celtis occidentalis. A hackberry.

 
Posted : May 9, 2016 8:57 pm
(@jim_h)
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If the fence post was called for in the deed, I'd locate it where it enters the ground and call it the corner. It looks like the nail in the side might have been set for this purpose. Maybe the one on the top was set prior to it's present lean.

 
Posted : May 10, 2016 6:06 am