Kids are buying a house. I've done some lots in the subdivision in the past. The original corners were marked with a hub and tack in 1979. They are deteriorating away. I found a hub at one back corner and a rotted hole for a hub at the other back corner. I found a hub and tack at the back corner north of the lot almost destroyed by some work being done and a partially rotted hub at the back corner of the lot to the south.
So things check out and I'm going to remark and survey the kids lots after they move in. Would you remark the other corners north and south of the lot to preserve them or just let them go? I can show where I measured them without remarking them. I hate to let them go but not being authorized to survey the lots nor getting paid for it maybe I'll need to fight my inclination to preserve the vanishing evidence.
Do you ever fix something just because it needs to be done and mostly no other reason?
Yes. I consider that is the within the purview of a surveyor to perpetuate monuments.
LRDay, post: 382489, member: 571 wrote:
Do you ever fix something just because it needs to be done and mostly no other reason?
Absolutely. But I'm in a recording state where I can say what I did and didn't do, and have it preserved for everyone, forever, even if all my personal records disappeared tomorrow.
LRDay, post: 382489, member: 571 wrote: not being authorized to survey the lots nor getting paid for it
A knock on the door should solve problem one. You are on your own with problem 2. In your circumstances I would go ahead for a family member's neighbors. I can't see doing it for anybody else.
I am simply amazed that you are finding any evidence of hubs from 1979. In our area, anything more than a few years hubs would have decomposed by now. All corners must be monumented with > 1/2" iron rods are other permanent material. I would try to set the other corners with the neighbor's permission to preserve the evidence.
lmbrls, post: 382515, member: 6823 wrote: I am simply amazed that you are finding any evidence of hubs from 1979. In our area, anything more than a few years hubs would have decomposed by now. All corners must be monumented with > 1/2" iron rods are other permanent material. I would try to set the other corners with the neighbor's permission to preserve the evidence.
I first worked in the subdivision about 15 years ago. At the time I didn't even know what to look for, all the plat says is the lots where staked. I asked Loyal Olson what he thought might be there and was told probably wood stakes. I lost a lot of money on the first survey in time looking for evidence. Once I found a good hub stake I used it to find a few more. Then I rotated my work to fit the subdivision. Turns out the original work was pretty good as since that time I've been able to find the original hubs, if they still exist, within about 0.3 feet of my search coordinates. I've probably still not made my original time back, left being mostly rewarded just knowing I got it right. Most of the lot owners that have called won't pay my reasonable fees.
My work is filed with the county and based upon it any competent surveyor should be able to locate any remaining hubs. The one hub seemed to be gone but as I dug carefully found what looked like rotted wood. I put some pressure with my finger and it just collapsed into a mostly square hole, right where I was searching. Loyal calls it bug dust. Hub survival depends on the soil, moisture, light and such. So I've found in this one subdivision hubs with tack in good shape down to a bug dust hole. Most of the front corners have been graded out.
Current regs require a 5/8 rebar and cap with PLS number. I still see new plats that don't say what they set for the corners, just that they were staked in the cert. Old habits may never die!
I would rehabilitate the monument, and I would file a Record of Survey, it doesn't cost much here and there is no review. If that isn't an option, I would try and file an Exhibit with the deed.
One should slice the ground with flat shovel more than dig with a round shovel when looking for very old survey monuments. I have found a few redwood 2x2's stains in the ground this way and one with the rust stain of the old carpenters tack still in place. Fun stuff 🙂 Jp
Just curious. Are the "kids" paying you for the survey? If not, a nice plat of survey with Dad's signature and seal would make a nice house warming gift.
Daniel Ralph, post: 382544, member: 8817 wrote: Just curious. Are the "kids" paying you for the survey? If not, a nice plat of survey with Dad's signature and seal would make a nice house warming gift.
Nope, no charge to the kids but we all help each other out quite a bit. I will file a survey with the county, set my rebar and caps and all that.
We just wanted to make sure there wasn't any problems along the boundaries of the property. Found no problems but not going to give the title folks anything prior to the sale. I'm sure the title folks don't want any survey with potential problems either. About the only time we do a survey before a closing is if the buyer wants one, nobody else cares, thinks a survey will just cause problems (many do, especially when the surveyor can't locate the boundary and stakes a new one - everything now off). There are few rouge rebar hanging out amongst the old hubs in that subdivision. What else is new?
I rehabilitate or upgrade monuments on a regular basis.
Report what I find and what leave behind.
My most common method is to use the original material as much as possible, like insert rod in a drilled out chunk of rock, brick or concrete that I have buried in the ground.
Monuments of wood are usually replaced with a new shiny rod and cap.
If you don't replace them now (where they are), somebody will come in later and put them where they think they should be.
Memorialize the locations and file the map (please)....
You could "Memorialize" this project, with a post hole digger, and some quickcrete, and some rebar with caps.
A good chance to really make the corners last, on one that matters to you... or your kids!
🙂
N
thebionicman, post: 382635, member: 8136 wrote: If you don't replace them now (where they are), somebody will come in later and put them where they think they should be.
Memorialize the locations and file the map (please)....
And, better yet, if you're setting aluminum-capped monuments to replace the tacked hubs, stamp the caps "FD ORIG HUB" to add one more layer of information to what is on the ground.
Kent McMillan, post: 382640, member: 3 wrote: And, better yet, if you're setting aluminum-capped monuments to replace the tacked hubs, stamp the caps "FD ORIG HUB" to add one more layer of information to what is on the ground.
In the non-recording States i would consider that. Around here it would be noted on the map.
thebionicman, post: 382641, member: 8136 wrote: In the non-recording States i would consider that. Around here it would be noted on the map.
I take it for granted that the extent of research surveyors perform does sometimes dip into the end of the thoroughness spectrum that might not disclose the resurvey map. If in fact that is an unwarranted concern, then, yes, the note on the map should be sufficient.
thebionicman, post: 382635, member: 8136 wrote: If you don't replace them now (where they are), somebody will come in later and put them where they think they should be.
Memorialize the locations and file the map (please)....
The hubs will be replaced by 5/8 rebar and 2-1/2 diameter aluminum caps (standard procedure).
The filed survey will describe what was found and what was reset.
I'll go ahead and do the two extra hubs because it's supporting evidence for the kids lot.
How far do you do though? I could do the whole subdivision but shouldn't I be compensated? The state laws require more and more be done with surveys of which the public won't pay and clients don't want to pay. Somebody's got to pay to maintain a profession that knows how to deal with boundaries. Nobody wants to, thus the poor condition of our cadastre!
Then once we do all this "free" work we are insulted by having to pay to file the records and fined if you don't!
LRDay, post: 382646, member: 571 wrote: The hubs will be replaced by 5/8 rebar and 2-1/2 diameter aluminum caps (standard procedure).
The filed survey will describe what was found and what was reset.
I'll go ahead and do the two extra hubs because it's supporting evidence for the kids lot.
How far do you do though? I could do the whole subdivision but shouldn't I be compensated? The state laws require more and more be done with surveys of which the public won't pay and clients don't want to pay. Somebody's got to pay to maintain a profession that knows how to deal with boundaries. Nobody wants to, thus the poor condition of our cadastre!
Then once we do all this "free" work we are insulted by having to pay to file the records and fined if you don't!
Well I am sure you don't "have to" set the adjoining corners. You are just doing it as a courtesy. I normally do not set corners other than those on the lot I am being paid to survey. (I think I did one time because it was badly damaged and I had to do extensive work to determine the correct location - I didn't want someone else coming along and fouling it up)
LRDay, post: 382646, member: 571 wrote: The hubs will be replaced by 5/8 rebar and 2-1/2 diameter aluminum caps (standard procedure).
The filed survey will describe what was found and what was reset.
I'll go ahead and do the two extra hubs because it's supporting evidence for the kids lot.
How far do you do though? I could do the whole subdivision but shouldn't I be compensated? The state laws require more and more be done with surveys of which the public won't pay and clients don't want to pay. Somebody's got to pay to maintain a profession that knows how to deal with boundaries. Nobody wants to, thus the poor condition of our cadastre!
Then once we do all this "free" work we are insulted by having to pay to file the records and fined if you don't!
Definitely enough there for a new thread...
After decades in a nonrecording state I tend to preserve what I can. The distinction here is pretty clear. Once I expose the hub or hole in isn't long for this world. I wouldn't feel right knowing my actions hastened the demise of good evidence. In the end it may also land me more work...