John
Certainly that happens (likely more often than I realize) that folks just don't have the knowledge... but I suspect we have also seen all too many cases of people just not turning their brains on before speaking...
> On the whole, this discussion is quite ironic. A bunch of Surveyors, that on the average, have less education than the average Engineer, talking about stupiity.
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> Also a bunch of Surveyors degrading clients instead of seeing it as an opportunity to build an relationship by demonstrating value.
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That same bunch of surveyors on the average have a higher intelligence than that same bunch of engineers on the average. IMHO, as deduced by over 40 years of observing both.
Mike, and all
I'm both and engineer and surveyor, having received a bachelors in CE but worked as a surveyor to get through school, and then continued surveying for quite a 10 years after graduating before getting a job as a junior civil. Now, after 30 years in both fields, I feel qualified to state the following:
All engineers and surveyors are individuals. Unfortunately, some, not all engineers who never really learned surveying, think that surveying is a minor thing. I think the problem is that they just don't know what they don't know, so they think it is a simple trig excercise. I don't fault them for it, I think it is simply a charactaristic of the human ego. Many engineers were at the top of their class in high school and come out of college thinking they are something special. They deal with very complex issues based on high level physics, math and other principles.
Don't find fault with the surveyor or the engineer. Just understand where the other is coming from and try to respect what they do know. It will benefit anyone as much as the interaction that will be accomplished.
I work in a very large engineering operation with surveyors, engineers, biologists and many other disciplines. The construction engineers complain about the designers. The designers complain about the construction engineers. They all complain about the surveyors. The surveyors complain about the engineers. The biologists and archaelogists complain about the engineers. And round and round it goes.
However, there are those that rise above it and see others for what their strengths are and work to make each understand the other. And they prosper. They are the jewels. I find myself always having to catch myself as I would like to acheive that level. It is a goal. A true quality. The ones I admire the most are those that know how to use tact to get a complaint across in a constructive manner instead of degrading the other.
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That same bunch of surveyors on the average have a higher intelligence than that same bunch of engineers
How do non college educated people realistically have higher intelligence than college educated people?
That’s right your observations ARE in Oklahoma, By Oklahomans. 🙂
Do non college educated surveyors realistically have higher intelligence than college educated surveyors?
Some might. Some don't.
True intelligence comes from education.
Education comes in many ways. College is one.
However, College does not provide all the tools.
Dad and Mom and other influential persons in one's life are important.
Then again.
You can't fix stupid.
Dont match wits with the unarmed.
> That same bunch of surveyors on the average have a higher intelligence than that same bunch of engineers
>
> How do non college educated people realistically have higher intelligence than college educated people?
>
> That’s right your observations ARE in Oklahoma, By Oklahomans. 🙂
>
> Do non college educated surveyors realistically have higher intelligence than college educated surveyors?
Intelligence has absolutely NOTHING to do with education and my observations cover more states than you seem to realize. If you believe that the two are related, you are somewhat less intelligent than I previously believed you to be.
Right, Stephen. I think some people miss the distinction between intelligence and knowledge. I happen to have a college degree in psychology which I guess shows that I have enough intelligence to read a book and pass a test pretty reliably. If you put my knowledge of auto repair up against a minimally competent high-school auto-shop student, I would be considered borderline brain-dead.
As far as engineers go, it takes a certain amount of intelligence to pass an engineering curriculum and a state licensing test. For the first 35-40 years of our company's 50-year history, we had a civil engineering staff and most of the civils were reasonably intelligent but the work had very little to do with problem-solving and fancy math, it was mostly knowing local ordinances, who to schmooze and how not to second-guess the surveyors.
My Dad was one of the few real Engineers I ever met. I expected most Engineers would be like him. Mostly I was sorely disappointed. For the most part success seems to be tied to how good you look in a suit and ability to grease the clients.
When I worked at the City I finally met and worked with an Engineer that knew how to Engineer things and he knew when to bring in the Surveyors to actually measure where things were so we wouldn't order a bunch of 60" welded steel fittings that didn't fit.
by Stephen Johnson...
...Intelligence has absolutely NOTHING to do with education...
It seems to me that Merriam Webster and Stephen Johnson disagree.
From Merriam Webster:
INTELLIGENCE
1a (1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : reason; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)
I guess you can always make up your own dictionary. However, it seems to me that getting a College degree would be very difficult if you didn't have "the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations"
Go ahead and live in you own delusional world. I guess you don't read dictionaries? You position does shine light on the quality of your observations.
Mr. Falk
It would appear you are the one with the learning and comprehension disability in this case. The point is that more education does not equal more intelligence. How does intelligence being defined as the ability to deal with new situations lead one to a conclusion that education=intelligence? I'm all for education and an intelligent person is more capable of benefitting from an education than an unintelligent person but just because a person has more education does not mean they are more intelligent. Just because I don't know one end of a screwdriver from another does not mean I am not intelligent, I was just never educated in the finer points of screwdriving.
Mr. Falk
Tell me how you get more of one without the other.
Mr. Falk
Simple - You can get more knowledge from education, but not more intelligence.
Mr. Falk
You are sorely confused on what someone learns in a "Quality" Engineering problem. You make take Calculus, Physics, Chemistry etc. but you don't graduate without developing an ability to SOLVE PROBLEMS.
Mr. Falk
So George W. Bush is more intelligent than Thomas Edison. Per your definition Mike.
Duh.... Bryan
No. follow the entire thread Bryan. I will summarize for you. College educated people are on average more intelligent than non college educated people.
Mr. Falk
I was editing the message above when Bryan posted.
Here is the edited post:
You are sorely confused on what someone learns in a "Quality" Engineering program. You may take Calculus, Physics, Chemistry etc. but you don't graduate without developing an ability to SOLVE PROBLEMS not necessarily Calculus, Physics, Chemistry problems.
Duh.... Bryan
Yes, of course I grant you that one. I did not think however, that was the intent of Mr. Johnson's post on the matter, but I defer to him to clarify.
Duh.... Bryan
Mr Johnson Believes and I quote, "Intelligence has absolutely NOTHING to do with education"
Mr. Falk
I assume by "problem" you mean "curriculum" and by "make" you mean "may"?
All I'm trying to say is that just because a person goes to college and demonstrates an ability to learn in that environment and comes away with some knowledge and skills that they might or might not use in the workplace does not mean that they are more intelligent than they were before they went or even that they are going to be better at their job than they would have been if they had not gone to college.
I don't regret going to college and obtaining a university degree. If I got nothing out of it, that would be a sad waste. Besides extending my childhood by several years, I was able to interact with different types of people and I was challenged to develop skills that I wouldn't otherwise have needed. Am I a better surveyor because I spent those years in college? That's debatable. Maybe it delayed total burnout by the amount of time spent there.
Duh.... Bryan
As with matters of surveying, "intent" is the key. I interpret his statement to be intended to mean what I believe, which is that college education has nothing to do with assessing whether someone is intelligent or not. I know plenty of people who did not go to college that I consider no less intelligent than myself with a BS degree.
