I just got off the phone from a spirited discussion with a real estate agent regarding "Item C2.a Top of bottom floor". I was telling him the results of the measurements where the main floor of the house is 0.13' above floodplain but there is a sunken living room 0.42' below that and a crawlspace under the house 3'+/- below that, so the bottom floor and next higher floor are both below floodplain.
He says "Let me stop you right there, you're wrong". He's saying the dirt floor of the crawlspace is not the top of bottom floor, C2.a is the lowest floor of the habitable portion of the house. I read him the certificate and instructions about three times and he had to get to an appointment, but he suggested that I call FEMA for a ruling on this. What I did was fax him Diagram 8 that shows a building elevated on a crawlspace with the C2.a arrow pointing at the bottom of the crawlspace.
I can't make any logical sense out of anything but the dirt floor of the crawlspace being the bottom floor as defined on the elevation certificate. I asked him "What would be the top of the living room floor, the ceiling?" That's when he had to get to that appointment.
FEMA experts, am I wrong?
He must subscribe to the theory that if you say something enough times it will come true.
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I don't really care if he believes me or not, but unless I convince him that I'm right, he's going to tell the property owner I'm wrong and this lady is already no picnic to deal with.
I thought the bottom floor was the first floor if there was a crawl space and there were no heating or utilities in the crawl space, but i dont have the form in front of me. The top of the first floor means the elevation of the surface of the floor, not the bottom of the joists of the same floor.
That's why I posted this here; in case I'm reading it wrong. C2.a says "Top of bottom floor (including basement, crawlspace or enclosure floor)". The instructions for C2 say "For buildings elevated on a crawlspace, Diagrams 8 and 9, enter the elevation of the top of the crawlspace floor in Item C2.a, whether or not the crawlspace has permanent flood openings (flood vents)." Unless there are some supplemental instructions I don't know about, I don't see a distinction about whether the crawlspace is heated or dirt floor or anything like that. The C2.a arrow in Diagram 8 points to the bottom of the crawlspace which in my world is the floor.
Correction: I said "real estate agent" in the OP, I meant "insurance agent".
I'm no expert and I didn't spend the night at a Holiday Inn, that being said I believe you are correct. You'll need to find FEMA TB-1 that addresses openings in elevated structures amongst other guidelines. I've seen them where the crawlspace is below the BFE but the "next higher floor" is above the BFE---this is where TB-1 comes in to play as you can only count the openings that are no more than 1 foot above the lowest adjacent grade (which can be either outside or inside the structure walls) up to the BFE. Any openings above the BFE you don't count towards the 1 sq. inch of opening per 1 sq. ft. of crawlspace.
When you look at it, for a Gubmit document and instructions it actually makes sense---they want to know if the crawlspace will flood and if so can the flood waters enter and exit without structural damage. Otherwise C2a in that diagram wouldn't be where it is.
Steve,
I do believe you are correct.
When I read the certificate. the diagrams make it fairly clear about what C2(a) is and why.
Joe
> I just got off the phone from a spirited discussion with a real estate agent regarding "Item C2.a Top of bottom floor". I was telling him the results of the measurements where the main floor of the house is 0.13' above floodplain but there is a sunken living room 0.42' below that and a crawlspace under the house 3'+/- below that, so the bottom floor and next higher floor are both below floodplain.
>
> He says "Let me stop you right there, you're wrong". He's saying the dirt floor of the crawlspace is not the top of bottom floor, C2.a is the lowest floor of the habitable portion of the house. I read him the certificate and instructions about three times and he had to get to an appointment, but he suggested that I call FEMA for a ruling on this. What I did was fax him Diagram 8 that shows a building elevated on a crawlspace with the C2.a arrow pointing at the bottom of the crawlspace.
>
> I can't make any logical sense out of anything but the dirt floor of the crawlspace being the bottom floor as defined on the elevation certificate. I asked him "What would be the top of the living room floor, the ceiling?" That's when he had to get to that appointment.
>
> FEMA experts, am I wrong?
The top of bottom floor is a moving target based upon the structure involved. Diagram 5, for example, shows the top of bottom floor to be on the elevated floor of a "house on stilts" (to paraphrase.) Your analysis has led you to determine diagram 8 as the closest fit. Are there any other diagrams that could fit? Perhaps diagram 3 or 4 since you've indicated a split level structure with the sunken floor?
I bring up the diagrams just to make you think on it a second time from a fresh direction. If upon a second fresh look you come up with the same or similar results, you can feel more confident about your determination. You're right about your interpretation of the instructions by the way. 8 out of 10 times the top of bottom floor is on the sub-floor. The other 2 times, (a house on stilts or an elevated slab), do not appear to apply in this case.
I'm a little mystified as to what the Agent is going for here; the fact of the matter is that there is a habitable space (sunken living room) that is below the flood plain. In a pass/fail environment, the numbers fail the house every time no matter what diagram one uses, and flood insurance is mandatory (if the mortgage is federally backed, etc. etc.) Is the client hoping to raise the sunken floor above floodplain? Even if she does, are there sufficient openings in the space? Is there machinery present in the space? Is the house in a V zone?
IMHO, you need to sit down with the Agent and go over the form, in person if it is not inconvenient. You (or the one who directly supervises you) are the licensed professional required by FEMA to fill out the form. The Agent is not, and it seems to me he needs to be told that in a firm yet polite manner.
This Is Why................
............they have a DIAGRAM!!!!
Angelina Jolie already had my baby! HAR HAR! 😉 😛 :beer:
You mean the kid aint mine?! Thats a relief....:-|
From what you described you are correct.
As you know we put several elevations on the certificate and it is up to the the agent to pick the correct one to rate the policy. The bottom of the crawl space is like the elevation of machinary it is rarely used to rate an insurance policy but depending of the circumstances it may be used.
You are on the right track. Newtonsapple has some good advice. If you end up using diagram 4 or 8 or maybe 9 I would note that C2a is a crawl space. In this situation venting is important. A properly vented crawl space can be eliminated (by ins. agent) from "lowest floor" (ins. term) consideration. I assume that LAG is also below BFE, so no LOMA. If memory serves me, properly vented requires at least 1 sqin venting per sqft enclosure. Portions of venting must be on two sides of enclosure, and venting must be below BFE (see technical bulletin #1) I believe ins.rating using sunken living room as lowest floor would result in a reduction from the standard rate, but no reduction if crawl space must be used as lowest floor. Home owner may need to do a cost analysis and consider venting crawl space. Lowest mechanical may also be a problem.
It depends on if the crawl space is "walled in". If there are "no obstructions" below the living floor, it would be #5, and the LFE would be the living floor. If it's closed in, it would be a #8, and the LFE would be the dirt in the crawl space.
This is a pretty good explaination. Scroll down to the bottom and you can see "item a" (which is c2.a) points to the bottom of the crawl space. But if you scroll back up and look the photo for build #5, "item a" points to the elevated floor.
http://www.greenvillesc.gov/publicworks/forms/ElevationCertificatePresentation.pdf
BTW, this is getting to be common place here since our flood maps went through a complete revision in 2003 and 2008 for two counties here. The NGVD to NAVD conversion accounts for +/-0.86' feet (lower) here, plus, in many cases, property was rezoned to different BFEs.
In most cases when I find a house below the BFE, I pull up the "historic maps" at the FEMA website which were in effect at the time of construction, and see if the house was built in compliance "at the time". If so, I'll submit the original map and the elevations converted back to NGVD, to show the house was built in compliance.
The change in vertical datums should have absolutely no effect on applicable flood zone. The numbers may change, but, they are still relative to the appropriate benchmark data. If something was 1.00 feet too low before, it is stil 1.00 feet too low now.
Well, not exaclty, because in some cases when they revised the maps, they didn't change the BFE. So the datum change (-0.86) caused all the houses built based on the previous maps to be considered -1 for flood insurance, unless they provide proof the house was built in compliance at the time.
In one case I know of the BFE for the area was raised two feet, from 8' to 10', so that plus the datum change caused the houses previously built to the minimum elevation to report as a -3 for flood insurance.
There is a good photo of a building 8 on page 10, with (a) pointing at the ground, and "Top of Bottom floor" noted.
http://www.fema.gov/pdf/fima/fema467-6-10-04.pdf
The insurance agent just called me a few minutes ago and said "I hate to say this but you're right". He had called the insurance company and they confirmed what I was saying. He still doesn't think it makes sense, but it was nice of him to call and "eat crow" as he put it. He doesn't think he has any leeway in rating the house as being in floodplain because the crawlspace only has about half the flood vents it would need to reduce the rate.
I hope you are mistaken
The new maps will show cross-sections at the same numbers, but, the locations of the contour lines and cross-sections have been moved to accomodate the new datum. At least that is how it has worked on all the new maps I have seen.
If you have old maps, you simply need to convert the old numbers to the new numbers and state so on the form where it specifically asks for this detail.