My take is to use the D'Zign. You already have it, so just use it until you know how to execute all the programs and what to put in the prompts without having to think about them.
I had a 41 and my 11C for my test. Didn't use either of them very much. Worked through the test on the ones that I didn't have to think much about or could do by longhand really quick then after I got done I went back and used the 11C for the most part to check my math in the remaining time. I think I used the 41 on just one probably that involved riparian rights. Worked it out longhand then used the 41 with COGO to also solve it a second way.
Best of luck!
You Cannot Use Your 48, Because It Is Not Approved
I don't think this situation could even occur in Virginia. Virginia regulations make one of the requirements to qualify to sit for the PS and state specific exam obtaining the designation of SIT. To obtain this designation a candidate must pass the FS exam and meet the other requirements regarding education, experience, etc.
I took the exams before the latest crackdown regarding acceptable calculators. I was allowed to take my HP-48 with SMI software into the exam along with my HP-32. I never turned on the HP-48 and didn't have any programs loaded in the HP-32.
I don't think there's anything wrong with using a cogo software to save time with calculations; no program will provide a substitute for the knowledge and experience necessary to pass the exam. I would use whichever software I was more comfortable using as the concentration should be on learning the necessary surveying concepts and applications, not learning a new software application.
For Mr. Paul in PA
As I stated above, the programs buy you TIME, not knowledge. Many people have to guess on several questions because they run out of time. That is the real value of a calculator with programs (and formulas).
Inversely, it can be said that programs may buy you knowledge. If one is running out of time, maybe it is because the candidate does not have sufficient knowledge of the material. Is the purpose to test knowledge, systematic thinking, attention to detail and problem solving skills or the ability to respond with a correct answers in an expedient way? I would think that a large percentage of your clients are persons who feel unsure of their abiltiy based on their knowledge and they may have previously failed the exam. Giving them the option of entering an exam with a 'loaded' calculator only proves one thing.
If you can briefly expound about in what manner the programs buy you time, I would be intersted since this is an area of your expertise as an instructor and vendor for exam preparation. I know that if I had to retest at this time that I might need a thorough review of 'knowledge' material in seminar setting but I do not think that I would need a loaded calculator.
When you can talk NCEES into letting the exam candidates take days and days to crank out the long hand math using trig tables and pencil and paper, you will be on to something.
Drop the hyperbole...
Maybe the state boards must perform additional screening to candidates to assure that they have the necessary knowledge to sit for the exam. I guess this is why the degree requirement is necessary. It does show an avenue of background of study for basic understanding of the material.
Muddy
While I see where you're coming from, I also see where Larry is coming from.
Case and point, when I took my SIT, I could use ANY calculator I wanted. 99% of the time, since I knew the math AND APPLICATION OF THE MATH, I used a HP 42 calculator. Now, there were about three problems where area and curves were involved. Sure, I could have done it the old way, but the 48 allowed for a quick area thereby buying me time in my focusing on other facets and problems instead of the cold hard math.
Larry, I agree with Robert to the point where the programs do buy you knowledge. If one never "came up the old way" (I have two SIT's right now that fit this bill), that cannot calculate long hand or understand the application of the math, but they do understand using CAD. They can extrapolate from TDS, PacSoft, and Carlson and use programs that fit the problem they're working. This "knowledge" of what program to use allows them to make the correct math decision. My beef is they won't know when they're getting the wrong answer and the checks to pull to ensure they've got the right answer (even though I beat it in their heads).
I think both of you are correct. My personal line of thinking is that you're more valuable when you understand the WHY and WHY NOT as opposed to understanding WHAT program to use. Then the programs do buy you time, but not knowledge IMHO.
I agree with Deral. Especially if you've started using D'Zign stick with it.
I don't really remember doing much math on the FLS, but I took it quite a few years ago. Practice and practice some more using whichever method is the most efficient and comfortable for you on the aspects you feel you are least familiar with and I wish you the best of luck.
DJJ
Muddy
It is simply evident like the nose on one's face that the programs will save you time.
But why?
Muddy
> It is simply evident like the nose on one's face that the programs will save you time.
> But why?
It does the steps faster than we do? 🙂
So, Steve, if you see someone asking how come a door is locked, when they are pulling on a door marked 'push', would you not point out that they need to take a closer look? The OP is asking which software will give him a better chance to pass, but really the correct question is what can he do to be better prepared to take the test next time. The NCEES gives you the formulae on handouts. Those formulae WILL calculate the correct answers to the questions. There is no "secret" to passing the test, you either know the material or you do not. If you cannot look at the questions and say "this question will require me to use this formula to solve" then you are not prepared to take the test. And if you can tell which formula to use, the preloaded calculator, while nice, is not necessary. Instead of concentrating on learning which key will run which program- remember the test is closed book- time would be better spent on learning when each of those formula should be used. Then whatever calculator you bring in will work.
Larry, while I see your point about the software making it faster, you really should not need the extra time if you are prepared. You cannot sit there and stare at the page, trying to figure out which formula that you will need to use. Would you not agree that most who pass with the preprogrammed calculators do so because by working problems with those calculators that they end up having to study the material and end up messing up and learning that which they thought they could not learn. I know it has been ages since I was in school, but I remember so many people who were trying to "cheat" a test that ended up learning the material in the process of trying to find a way to get an edge on the test. I think that is what happens here. If they just focused on learning it, maybe they would not have to put so much effort in it. Or maybe by being distracted they actually have an easier time learning it, I do not know.
Was my experience that knowing the math and and methods along with having used them extensively created the instinct for a reasonable expectation of what results to look for, then using a rejection process would allow for a quick check calculation of the usually 2 remaining contenders would narrow it down to one very quickly. I used the original HP 35 for the exam, but I had done thousands of comps on it in my work. I could do, six zero divide plus, without even thinking. Know what to expect before you even start a calculation and you have it whipped, only need to refine the answer, knowing what to expect, you have confidence in the result. The tools that you choose to use should become second nature. The knowledge on what to use and when is something you need to develop and you haven't developed it until you can anticipate a close expectation of what the results should be, that requires working all problems, one step at a time and closely watching the progress to the correct answer, seldom taught by the learned today, primarily because they don't have or are unwilling to develop that skill themselves, it takes to much time, so they remain dependent on their cheat sheets and tools. The grey matter, not the tools, is what counts.
jud
> Larry, while I see your point about the software making it faster, you really should not need the extra time if you are prepared. You cannot sit there and stare at the page, trying to figure out which formula that you will need to use. Would you not agree that most who pass with the preprogrammed calculators do so because by working problems with those calculators that they end up having to study the material and end up messing up and learning that which they thought they could not learn. I know it has been ages since I was in school, but I remember so many people who were trying to "cheat" a test that ended up learning the material in the process of trying to find a way to get an edge on the test. I think that is what happens here. If they just focused on learning it, maybe they would not have to put so much effort in it. Or maybe by being distracted they actually have an easier time learning it, I do not know.
In the webinar I link in my original response I stress that there is no substitute for focused, determined preparation. No calculator, no set of formulas, nothing can replace the simple act of spending time ... lots of time ... with the study materials. Work problems, over and over and over till you are sick to death of them. Failing to do that will bring you to that old saying. Failing to prepare is preparing to fail.
In general I think it is fair to say that the better prepared you are the less time you will need per question. However I also think it fair to say that each of us works at a slightly different pace. So for me the time was not an issue but for someone else just as smart and prepared (or more so) it might have been.
Larry P
Agreed. Stick with what you know and are comfortable with. Get passing the exam under your belt and worry about streamlining software skills later on in your career. Odds are good you'll then be getting paid to learn something anyways (employers have their own chosen software & equipment needs).
Good luck to ya LIS. I'm not so sure I'd want to sit for the FLS exam nowadays (I doubt many of us geezers would want that challange).
For Larry P
That she passed the National Exam with a wiped calculator shows she was mathematically competent. I would surmise tht most State Specific exams are less mathematically based. The exception would be States that include "Stormwater" questions.
Did she subsequently pass?
Paul in PA
its been a while since i passed the FS but i only needed a TI-36. Your given the formulas and just need the calculater to do the heavy math....(others on here might think you have to know how to multiply 10 digit numbers too or else you shoulden't be licensed!) Also, i would look into the the NYSAPLS workshop for the FS. I believe Dr. Piava is giving it. I took the NYS Specific one with Him and it was very helpful and i did pass! You can get info on it through the NYSAPLS web site or contact me and i'll get it for you........On another general note, I find it ridiculous that someone posting a legitimate question here gets such negative comments....I thought we were supposed to be the professionals and be a place where someone could get a honest BUT professinal answer. If i had to guess i would say a few people on here have the mentality of a child, grow up already! A pre-apology to those who gave good honest CONSTRUCTIVE advice.......Ok, off the soap box..(I'm sure those I'm talking about will respond too!)