CYA

I always liked seeing the note that the contractor to verify all topographic data before using.  As if they are going to budget to complete a full survey for 10 miles of highway with complex underground structures, yet is happens all the time where they agree and never conduct the topo.

I received an invite to bid on a small county project which is basically a sheet metal building with a small parking lot, so I clicked the link to download the project files.  There was the plan set .pdf and then a specifications .pdf.  I clicked the spec one first and it was 457 pages long...

Posted by: @bstrand

↑

clicked the spec one first and it was 457 pages long...

That's standard. Luckily it is 99% boilerplate so having once read it you need only skim through it on future projects with the same owner/engineer team. Plus the engineer will alert readers to any oddities.  It is an unfortunate fact of life today that these things must be written not so that reasonable people can interpret its meaning, but so that people of ill intent cannot possibly interpret it any other way.   

I think the building staking job I was sent about a decade ago had 458 pages. There were pages and pages of threats concerning what will happen to you if you don't do exactly what the other pages of documents tell you to do. Jail time and charges of criminal nature were cited. I cleared it out of my email and computer system. The time to bid a parking lot and building layout would swamp any profit, so it was circular filed. I did end up chatting with the surveyor that staked it. Seems the company he worked for didn't make anything on that job. They looked at it as a loss leader for other work. 

I haven't done any construction staking work in about 15 years, but when i got out of it, it seemed that a set of "Construction Plans" were nothing more than a set of drawings to obtain the necessary municipal approvals to build the site, versus a true set of plans you could actually build something from.  More disclaimers and less data seemed to be the direction the "plan sets" were moving toward. 

I do a lot of construction staking, but it's for private owners and their own works. We stake many miles of fence lines, buildings, ect. 

Much of modern day construction is done without staking. We just finished a subdivision next to the office, no stakes set except for the property monuments and control for the machines, the roads, utilities, grading was all done by machine control. So far it looks great, everything is draining. I was skeptical, but I'm sure on-board to "give" all that up. 

Posted by: @chuck-beresford

↑

More disclaimers and less data seemed to be the direction the "plan sets" were moving toward. 

They have continued at a steady pace so you can imagine where they are now.

Posted by: @chuck-beresford

↑

"Construction Plans" were nothing more than a set of drawings to obtain the necessary municipal approvals ....

It is true the that the paper plans contain little stake-able information. The action is in the ".pdfs" and ".dwgs". I would not attempt to stake anything substantial without the CAD model. And why litter the plans with a sea of dimensions that can easily be measured off the model with a few clicks. If you are so inclined you can load the drawing file into your dc and stake by clicking on the lines. No point calcs.

Posted by: @norman-oklahoma

↑

If you are so inclined you can load the drawing file into your dc and stake by clicking on the lines. No point calcs.

 

Until you get sued and then have to defend why you didn't stake according to the signed plans but instead used a CAD file that was given to you with the disclaimer that it was for checking the plans only and was not to be relied upon.

If staking from CAD has become a defensible standard of practice for the profession please let me know because that would be a game changer.

Posted by: @mightymoe

↑

Instructions on a shampoo bottle stuff. 

Little known fact: "Wash, Rinse, Repeat" isn't instructions; it's an existential commentary on the postmodern world  

Posted by: @lurker

↑

Posted by: @norman-oklahoma

↑

If you are so inclined you can load the drawing file into your dc and stake by clicking on the lines. No point calcs.

 

Until you get sued and then have to defend why you didn't stake according to the signed plans but instead used a CAD file that was given to you with the disclaimer that it was for checking the plans only and was not to be relied upon.

If staking from CAD has become a defensible standard of practice for the profession please let me know because that would be a game changer.

You've been burned in a lawsuit this way?

I'd be curious where these paper plans came from if the cad file is not reliable.  Are there still engineers hand drafting multi sheet plan sets?

Burned No. Was sued along with everyone else involved in the condominium project. The plaintiff hired a 3rd party expert (surveyor) to review what we had done. All of our work was compared to the signed and sealed plans, not the CAD that produced those plans. We were absolved and released from the suit after this review.

Signed plans are usually the contract documents. CADD drawings not so much….

Posted by: @bstrand

↑

I'd be curious where these paper plans came from if the cad file is not reliable.  Are there still engineers hand drafting multi sheet plan sets?

I've been trying to figure that out for years now.  Anymore, I spend an unreasonable amount time comparing the CAD file with what little information I find on the plan set.  Inevitably there will be discrepancies that need to be resolved by RFI.

Call me old, but I remember when you could sit in the truck and hand calc everything off the printed plans.  Those plans are as rare as hen's teeth these days, you need to beg the engineer for CAD files that may or may not match the signed plan set.  As for CYA, the engineers can easily digitally sign/stamp the CAD files in a way that indicates when they have been altered.

Now don't get me started on 'Buildability'

Knew a fellow who was an excellent hand draftsman.  He made an excellent living working for clients long after computer drafting was the norm.

~1998 and a new jail - hand drafted by Structural Engineer and Architects by one firm but in separate offices.  Pre-stressed roof panels built and on-site.  Long story short - foundation, floor plan and ceiling plan did not fit on $60mil project.  New project manager showed up in boots and blue jeans and told jail authority he was in charge and had us compute and layer up the drawings to outline the problem areas and come up with a plan to salvage the roof panels.  Good PM's are a pleasure to work with and we ended up with keys to the jail.

@hpalmer   That sounds like some computer-generated plans for a small hospital addition.  I started discovering places where what I got for total dimensions on one sheet didn't agree with the totals for a different sheet that should have been identical.  I brought this to the construction superintendent's attention.  We had a stiff conversation.  I finally suggested he find someone else to take the fall.  I really didn't need that job in the first place.  I would have turned it down to start with but I was only allowed access to what they had in the super's trailer on site.

We got an RIP for an addition to a building on Friday. The addition is 5000sf. Some sidewalks but no parking lot, utilities or road staking. 

The file sent to us is 2249 pages. 

I told my partner that if he wants to bid it to put in the bid that we are only going to be concerned with pages xx-xx. 

Try and restrict it to relevant information, also if it's a hold back situation, be sure to either let them know we are adding on 25% each billing cycle or figure it into the bid.  

Posted by: @rankin_file

↑

Signed plans are usually the contract documents. CADD drawings not so much….

It seems the only way anyone would even know a surveyor used the cad file is if the surveyor told them.

And what's the "proper" way to do it anyway?  Take the paper plans and draw them out in cad so we can officially claim we staked things per the paper plans?