Tom Adams, post: 381754, member: 7285 wrote: Well, you guys are probably right, that too many noses get involved in Boundary Line Agreements. In theory, if two people are uncertain of their common line they can reach an agreement on where it falls, and they can describe that location and sign an agreement to that effect. The County shouldn't have any say, the surveyor doesn't have to be involved, and if they bring one on board s/he should only be involved with writing up the location of the agreed-on line and shouldn't have any influence on where they agree to put it. I agree, if the bank/lender actually holds the note, they might have some leverage.
However the agreement does not change the line or the "legal" area of the properties and it doesn't transfer any land. It merely 'fixes" where the uncertain line between the neighbors. The County Clerk shouldn't have any say if you bring in a signed boundary line agreement and record it for the public records. The Planning department shouldn't even be involved because, again, the agreement does not move the property line. It is not a Boundary Line Adjustment
In this case, from what I understand two different surveyors placed the corners in different locations. If one of he surveyors just stamps the work of his field guys 'flinging" his property pins to wherever they land, he is at fault and his license to practice should be taken away. That work is under his direct responsibility and control. Land owners should be able to rely on their Surveyor's expert opinion and it isn't their fault if the surveyor they hire is incompetent.
P.S.(if you want some ammunition to slap me around with) I have never prepared a boundary line agreement and am not a lawyer. Only discussing theory here.
I think this is an important discussion. If we as surveyors are initiating a Line of Agreement, rather than discovering an agreement that already exists between homeowners, it is because we have discovered uncertainty that can't be resolved by survey so it seems to me that it doesn't really matter if you're in an objective or subjective uncertainty state. I agree that the County shouldn't be involved, this is a basic contract between the two land owners to clarify on the ground the position of an existing line. Now it can get a little sticky in the fact that the County may see this as a Lot Line Adjustment, so for this reason, I believe the line must represent your best guess or a reasonable interpretation of the existing line. But I do believe that if we are to initiate an agreement, a surveyor needs to be involved, the line(s) need to be monumented and a new legal prepared. If they are doing this entirely on their own, they may end up in the same situation they are currently in, where the line can't again be put on the ground.
Dave Karoly, post: 381406, member: 94 wrote: The first thing is to hire a local boundary surveyor who does forensic work to go in to the subdivision and find out what the heck is going on, why is there conflicting control in a relatively new subdivision? The results of that will inform the next step.
A comprehensive investigation. Don't hire one of the subdivision mill surveyors. Get a real boundary surveyor who is licensed in Virginia.
$$$$
Wendell, post: 381456, member: 1 wrote: Joanie,
My apologies for the post from Dave Ingram, who posted your address for everyone to see. That's not only rude, it's a violation of your privacy by Dave, and should never have occurred. You obscured the information on the surveys for good reason and I have no idea why he would violate that. The post has been removed.
Secondly, I'd also like to apologize for his rude message(s) to you. This would not be his first offense (nor his second or third) and he has now been banned from this website.
Dave strikes again, but for the last time! hah!
If the current owner or neighbor were to put this property up for sale then the next lender required a survey of the property then it reveals a problem in the boundary. The sale may stop dead in the water.
If the problem is not resolved then the value of the homes are dimished as well because of this issue.
Relate it to a newer car with 45,000 miles on it yet when inspected the tech enters the mileage as 145,000. This gets reported to state DMV. Car gets traded in not long after and dealer runs report (carfax) that now shows a descrepency in the odometer reading between previous inspection and current showing mileage. The trade in value just dropped because of the odometer descrepency red flags the vehicle.There is no recourse here to fix an such an error in state records for inspections. The dealers will suspect odometer tampering regardless of told reasons. If the issue were corrected the value would return. But from a personal experience of trying to get a techs fat finger corrected run constantly into solid granite. Truck lost $4500 in trade in value because of it.
The homes will follow the same encumbered value until the line issue is corrected.
roger_LS, post: 381792, member: 11550 wrote: My gut reaction, being that this is a modern survey is that we have a basic mistake here, not some kind of global problem with original control in the sub. If that's the case, a competent surveyor should be able to easily identify the problem, show the facts to who ever blew it and that the surveyor in error would admit the mistake, and revise his survey, end of story, end of problem. No Line of agreement, lot line adjustment, no attorneys needed.
Exactly. Like I said earlier, I'd be surprised if this isn't resolved once the two surveyors compare notes.
One will say "ahaaa" the other will say "yeeeep" and one plat will be adjusted.
Dan Patterson, post: 381795, member: 1179 wrote: $$$$
I am aware that I changed my mind.
Rich., post: 381849, member: 10450 wrote: Exactly. Like I said earlier, I'd be surprised if this isn't resolved once the two surveyors compare notes.
One will say "ahaaa" the other will say "yeeeep" and one plat will be adjusted.
It depends on the local Surveyor culture.
Stubbornness runs in Land Surveyor blood. It's great to stick to your guns but sometimes being reasonable helps too.
Surveyor agreements are cool, but the issues need to be settled permanently.
And don't forget the setbacks, maybe a lot line or 2 need to be changed.
TL;DR
It may have been pointed out in the pages I didn't read, but.....
Dave Karoly, post: 381372, member: 94 wrote: Those second two surveys don't look like boundary surveys to me. They don't indicate any found or set monuments. They are just cartoons
1. It's a site plan to pull a building permit
2. The surveyor (who's firm name is plainly visible) is both a well respected surveyor and on the licensing board in Maryland.
To the GENERAL PUBLIC they ARE SURVEYS. The points on the ground, are synonymous with the survey.
To call them cartoons... is to belittle the public's perception... ie, they don't see it that way.
Amongst surveyors, we can call them, what we want.
LOP (lies on paper) Cartoons, and fictions.
Or, a waste of ink.
But, like it or not, I can see HUGE liability, for the company that does a PAPER plat, without a site visit (equipment included) and DOES not set corners. What IF there were existing monuments, (wood stakes) that were 10' out of position, set by a tree guy, who merely wanted to tell HIS crew where to plant some trees? And, the landowner USED them?
I'm just saying, the "plat" does not SAY "This plat is for illustration purposes, and no site visit was performed, and we have no knowledge of corners, monuments, or occupation. This plat is just for the planning commission, and is essentially bogus". (which statement, would essentially be honest!)
This kind of thing, leads to the problems that this whole thread illustrates.
I don't recommend it.
N
Nate The Surveyor, post: 381922, member: 291 wrote: To the GENERAL PUBLIC they ARE SURVEYS. The points on the ground, are synonymous with the survey....
But, like it or not, I can see HUGE liability, for the company that does a PAPER plat, without a site visit (equipment included) and DOES not set corners
The statutory definition of land surveying varied from state to state. Once licensed a surveyor here can practice land surveying his entire career without setting one property corner (preparing site development plans, grading plans, storm water management plans, utility as-builts, etc.)
James, without a site visit. I can see NOT setting any corners, IF they are already in place. But, if they are "Already out there, but not where the plat says". Now, we could have a problem.
Capish?
N
Dave Karoly, post: 381911, member: 94 wrote: It depends on the local Surveyor culture.
Stubbornness runs in Land Surveyor blood. It's great to stick to your guns but sometimes being reasonable helps too.
If he's presented with overwhelming evidence of a mistake and still doesn't back off, I'm going to go back and agree with Mark Mayer...he should be strung up!
roger_LS, post: 381946, member: 11550 wrote: If he's presented with overwhelming evidence of a mistake and still doesn't back off, I'm going to go back and agree with Mark Mayer...he should be strung up!
I've seen it happen a couple of times here; the LS just could not admit he was mistaken, just couldn't do it to the point of losing his livelihood.
Dave Karoly, post: 381947, member: 94 wrote: I've seen it happen a couple of times here; the LS just could not admit he was mistaken, just couldn't do it to the point of losing his livelihood.
I've seen that once too, really mind boggling but probably for the best, we shouldn't have folks with that level of intelligence (or emotional intelligence) in the profession
The governing factor is what was represented to you and marked on the ground. State laws vary but that is pretty universal & that is what you bought. A seller can't change his mind after the sale regardless of what the plat says. If he made a mistake, that's tough. The exception to that is he can't convey land he doesn't own. There are always exceptions & extenuating situations but that is the basics, to be applied with sound judgement.
Paul in PA, post: 381755, member: 236 wrote: Give me a break! The subdivision is seven years old and construction is not yet complete. Absent revised map filings or gross errors on the map filed, there can only be one location for every lot corner. If final monuments have not been set, these disagreeing surveyors may well have started from points set by others who did incomplete diligence. I do note that specific addresses do not Google up consistently along the street. Absent concrete monuments at specific corners the street itself may be the best available monument.
On my survey in an incomplete subdivision I mentioned here a few days ago, I found the curb faces to be within tenths of design location. On the SW rear pin by which I was held for the geometry it is 125.00' to lot corner and 1335.05 to face of curb. From the SE corner, calc corner to front corner 134.43', calc corner to face of curb 144.17' and found pin to face of curb 144.21'.
Were the map making surveyor to come back and set the monuments after completion of the roadway, am I the original surveyor or is he?
Paul in PA
Paul, if a subdivision plat has been completed, recorded, and they have started selling lots, I would say that at the point that the subdivision map has been recorded the "original" corners have been established. If there are lots without monuments on them they are subject to proration from what monuments are in the ground. They would be like the "first" center-of-section monument that is not part of the original GLO platting of the original section.
I would suggest that if you set the first corners it has to be respected just as much as if the 'platting' surveyor comes back after acceptance of the subdivision plat and set his corners.
Perhaps I shouldn't have brought up Boundary Line Agreements earlier since, in this case, it sounds like the neighbors probably wouldn't agree if they are already convinced the corners are in a different location. However, for you guys that say "you can't do that". What if two neighbors came out and saw two different sets of monuments for their common line and reached an agreement, wrote that agreement up and both signed it, and recorded it with the Clerk-And-Recorder. Wouldn't the public be put on notice? Can you really come back and say that this agreement doesn't count because the county planners didn't approve it? Are you really going to set new monuments that disagree with the agreed-to line?
Just some food for thought.
Just saying. Otherwise, carrion.
