CAD question for the Antipodean Surveyors and Others

In this little part of the World (Tasmania), there are quite a number of programs in use, although I don't believe I've seen anyone using Carlson which by this site seems quite popular over there.

For plans we are guided by this Plan Specifications and following other examples.

The Land Titles Office here used to be very vigorous in checking plans and survey notes (even to the way boundaries were defined). Now they are less so but still check all the maths (coordinates, areas, closures, comparisons to older surveys, etc) and notations before the plan gets registered and titles created. I just wish they had enforced some sort of legibility requirements years ago with hand drawn survey notes. Some of them are very hard to read as they were written in lettering that is too small or in a scrawl.

Here, everything is done via a plan (your plat I think). What is the sort of approximate percentages for what is done via plats and via deeds for you?

> In this little part of the World (Tasmania), there are quite a number of programs in use, although I don't believe I've seen anyone using Carlson which by this site seems quite popular over there.

I'm looking for something better than Carlson, so I'd be interested to know what's in use elsewhere.

> Here, everything is done via a plan (your plat I think). What is the sort of approximate percentages for what is done via plats and via deeds for you?

In my practice, probably more than 75% of the conveyances, agreements, and whatevers are done via metes and bounds descriptions in deeds and other instruments. "Plats" in Texas typically means a plan of subdivision or amendment to a subdivision that has been submitted to either a County or municipal authority for approval. Typically that is done in connection with land developement when land is subdivided in connection with some commercial or residential housing scheme.

That's not to say that maps showing the results of resurveys aren't quite commonly produced as well. They are. It's just that in Texas there is no ready archive to receive them, so they tend to remain as private documents that may be referenced or reflected in the metes and bounds descriptions that do end up in the public records.

Hey mate,
A lot of firms and government departments over here used to use a program called CivilCAD, which is now re-badged Magnet office. The functions haven't changed much since it was re-badged. Unlike Magnet field which I've heard a lot of people are struggling with, the office software is pretty much bullet proof, really reliable and easy to learn.

in recent years over here though we've seen a mass migration towards other packages such as 12D, Civil 3D, and Micro Survey. I've used 12D a little and it seems pretty good, I've also spoken to a lot of surveyors who swear it's the greatest thing sliced bread. Never used Micro survey so can't speak for that.

I wouldn't even contemplate touching Civil 3D unless you plan to do intensive engineering design, and I've heard that there are a few survey related functions missing in Civil 3D.

I'd ask for a demo licence for any software you investigate and try before you buy. The dealers can make the program look great when using pre-prepared data, but you will get a good feel for it once you download your own raw data.

> in recent years over here though we've seen a mass migration towards other packages such as 12D, Civil 3D, and Micro Survey. I've used 12D a little and it seems pretty good, I've also spoken to a lot of surveyors who swear it's the greatest thing sliced bread. Never used Micro survey so can't speak for that.

Thanks. I hadn't heard of 12D before and will check it out. I bought MicroSurvey a few years ago and found it underwhelming. I'm looking for something useful in every day surveying practice.

> It isn't a complicated question. What software is most widely used in the Antipodes (and other places outside of the US) for drafting survey plans?

One thing I'm particularly interested to know is how various survey drafting software handles drafting where map projections are involved. The software that I've used for quite a long time handles the problem by the simple solution of allowing the input of a scale factor that is then applied to input and to calculated outputs such as annotated distances and area calculations. It makes working in large-scale map projection systems a snap since the drawing can be maintained in the map projection without some flaccid work-around intervening. Design work can be done in surface units while reduced automatically to (near) grid distances, and annotations can be done in surface units (or, for that matter, any other unit such as varas or chains that a scale factor for which a scale factor can be computed).

My thought was that other places that made extensive use of a national map projection grid would probably deal with the problem more cleanly than in the US where the main solution appears to be to use some local map projection as opposed to the larger-scale State or National projection.

12D looks and feels a lot like a grown version of TrimMap 🙁

You should also look at LisCad, which is also popular down here.

We dont do anything with metes and bounds - here the software make or break is how well it handles LandXML

Kent I run Microsurvey and currently Beta testing 2015.
I also have Bricscad for my main Cad work as it is rock solid, has many useful applications written by others.
Intellicad has a pretty ordinary rating IMO.
I've run with MsCad since the 90's and use it for all my survey related work including COGO.

I then take my annotated line work to Bricscad to draw up my Titles Office plans and Notes.
As Seb says we have a unique set of plans and Notes for the Titles Office.

12D is certainly popular here but I'd think it's popularity is more engineering as that is what it set out to do and to do well.
It does survey stuff but can't comment. It was never cheap but is quality application.

i have an old version of CivilCad and that is rock solid but rarely use it.
It was not Cad based but did Cad drawings. Haven't seen latest but think it's Topcon owned so probably gets supported well? My assumption.

Carlson is not overly popular around here and to be honest though I run SurvCE can't speak very highly of their support here.

If you are purely after a Cad package separate from COGO, modelling etc then Bricscad would be my first choice. And remember there are applications you can purchase to do survey things.
Can't comment on how polished they are beyond one application ie.

Assuming you cany handle the other survey routines elsewhere then I'm confident that would be I beneficial.

I've probably rambled way beyond your query, but mention other for those interested.

> 12D looks and feels a lot like a grown version of TrimMap 🙁
>
> You should also look at LisCad, which is also popular down here.

A friend in South Australia has said quite a few favorable things about LisCad, which he uses in his own practice. Maybe I should look at it more carefully, eh?

> Kent I run Microsurvey and currently Beta testing 2015.
> I also have Bricscad for my main Cad work as it is rock solid, has many useful applications written by others.
> Intellicad has a pretty ordinary rating IMO.
> I've run with MsCad since the 90's and use it for all my survey related work including COGO.
>
> I then take my annotated line work to Bricscad to draw up my Titles Office plans and Notes.

> Assuming you cany handle the other survey routines elsewhere then I'm confident that would be I beneficial.
>
> I've probably rambled way beyond your query, but mention other for those interested.

No, no rambling there. I am considering BricsCad, but haven't actually downloaded it for a trial, yet.

I'm not looking for some lame CAD program to do adjustments that I can do much better in Star*Net, but it would be nice to have the basic COGO functions available, including annotation of line in normal survey formats, which in the US would included quadrant-bearing angle directions rather than whole-circle bearings.

I'm using CivilCAD/Magnet here, have never had an issue. It has the most user friendly raw data editor I've seen, produces DTM's simply and are easy to modify, runs least squares routines/transformations with scale factors included if you want, and is able to export data in other manufacturers formats aswell as Topcon's.

Alot of surveyors here have converted to 12D so they are compatible with the engineers designs, I guess surveying and designing with the same package makes sense. Alot of surveyors who have gone to 12D have never looked back.

Both packages are very good design packages aswell, I'm using CivilCAD/Magnet for road and drainage design without any hiccups. It produces DTM's and associated data for machine control software without an issue. 12D is very heavily used for designing here, there are alot of jobs advertised that won't accept any candidates unless they have experience in 12D, so it must be the goods.

Have a look on youtube if you're interested for demos.

Forgot ListCad. That is good from those I know use it.
It is a well established program.

Bricscad and ToolPac may well fit your needs.
Have a look at ToolPac by Terry Dotson.
That would be the cheapest option from all others mentioned here.
It can do basic traverse with annotation and he's an American so it was written for your ways.
Cogo is another matter though.
I have Copan but seldom use it. Does that fit your COGO needs?

Map projections was something I was told by a mate ListCad does beautifully.
Someone who uses will chip in here.
Here in Oz we only have to deal with one basic projection, but Australia spans several zones.
It's fantastic here we have one Zone which is very good, and other projections don't get mentioned.

I'm not sure we'd have much need to label in map (grid) and ground.
Can't use that with Titles Office and engineers would freak out!

So whilst that's a possible option I'm not sure how many would handle that side.
I gather lat/long feature over your way.
I've never seen it used here so probably annotations may be scant in our programs.

To CAD or go beyond CAD

The object of a drawing program is to take your x,y,z and make a drawing that represents your lifework on paper.

The final product is dependent upon the artistic ability and presentation of the operator.

The superpowers that Carlson brings is the ability to do anything surveying with one program. It has the ability draw and to compute and to expand those basic functions into global transformations and location as desired.

This can be said to be the goal of most any modern survey software.

Most every product on the market will go way beyond the requirements for basic drafting.

The down under book of requirements for drafting control and requirements for finished product are the standards of law that makes the operator follow guidelines and be responsible for the crisp appearance of their drawings.

I've had many a losing argument with potential draftsmen who adhere to button pushing, quickie output and poorly resulting drawings. All being relevant to the lack of using the power their CAD.

The appearance of a drawing is in the ability of the draftsman more than name of the program being used.

BTW, I have also been on the opposite side of the table with many Mussolinis who would be lost without their job title that entitles them to have everyone else in the office to do the actual work.

:mail:

Its more about rules and regulations for drafting plats than software...when you dictate fonts, styles,linetypes, linewidths, orientation, title block info, north arrow, etc. plans will look the same no matter what software you use. Perhaps they have a course on drafting land registration plats you can take.

> To CAD or go beyond CAD
>
> The object of a drawing program is to take your x,y,z and make a drawing that represents your lifework on paper.
>
> The final product is dependent upon the artistic ability and presentation of the operator.
>
> The superpowers that Carlson brings is the ability to do anything surveying with one program. It has the ability draw and to compute and to expand those basic functions into global transformations and location as desired.

Well, I have the relatively simple desire to construct survey maps in the SPCS on top of georeferenced images, to annotate them with distances that are scaled from the grid values one would inverse from the SPCS, and to be able to export the whole show as a pdf.

I also have the relatively simple desire to be able to input record data to draw parcels, but applying some scale factor (that can be large enough to convert record data in varas to grid feet) without having to lock it in as a project parameter.

The last version of MSCAD I bought had the extremely funky feature of wanting the SF(in) and SF(out) to be separate values which were inverses of each other instead of just using the same value in inverse senses within the computations as one would normally do, i.e. multiplying by for input and dividing by for output.

> Its more about rules and regulations for drafting plats than software...when you dictate fonts, styles,linetypes, linewidths, orientation, title block info, north arrow, etc. plans will look the same no matter what software you use.

Well, take a simple thing like the construction of line and curve data tables, for example. I assume that some survey drafting programs generate tables in a limited number of formats. Otherwise, the funky grid lines that one typically sees on a table wouldn't be on the drawing and the user could construct a more legible table.

well, let us know what program you find works best for you.

I've been using a basic cogo program for many years. You can build as you go.
Perhaps it too will be underwhelming but perhaps it'll be just ready enough to catch your attention. It can't show you anything in 3d and you can't fly through it like Peter Pan, but it's good.
My software of choice PCSurvey

Have you looked into Bentley products? They have a product, Power Civil, which, I am told, resembles early C&G for Microstation.

C&G is an intuitive survey product written by two local (to Atlanta, Georgia, USA) surveyors, Ed Cowherd and Dean Goodman, the "Muddy Boots Guys". They initially wrote survey software for ACAD and Microstation. C&G is now owned by Carlson.